NJT signal indications

ApproachMedium wrote:So where are you getting ABS from Portal to swift? Book says Bergen& hudson is 562/Int and the notes dont say anything about ABS rules included there. If your going from A to bergen 562 is in effect and the notes say "On tracks where 562 is in effect, rule 261, abs rules and CSS rules 550 through 563 (except rules 554&556) are in effect for movements in both directions.

Your absolutely correct, I have absolutely no idea why i said Swift and Portal - I was thinking and meant Bergen and A (which is why I mentioned the Distant Signal Marker in the North Tube) -

What are they putting in Halls cough drops these days?!!?!? hahahhaha

So, let me get this straight. There are blocks in 562/261 territories, just not siganls for them. Meaning, it is like having ABS 261 track minus the pyhiscal automatic signals.

Is there anyway of knowing where block limits are? If not, I'm assuming there are rules that a train cannot reverse move at all in 562 territory without permission from the dispatcher as they would not know where the block they are occupying ends. Is this correct?

nick11a wrote:So, let me get this straight. There are blocks in 562/261 territories, just not siganls for them. Meaning, it is like having ABS 261 track minus the pyhiscal automatic signals.

Is there anyway of knowing where block limits are? If not, I'm assuming there are rules that a train cannot reverse move at all in 562 territory without permission from the dispatcher as they would not know where the block they are occupying ends. Is this correct?

Exactly Nick, there are blocks in 562 territory. Usually they are marked by a signal hut along with impedence bonds inbetween the rails, however, especially on Amtrak, there are some places where they drop without either.

A "quick and dirty" explaination of 562 would be take your favorite line, and go inbetween 2 interlockings. All those automatics inbetween would be gone, the only wayside signals that would remain would be the home signals for the interlockings. Where those automatics were, the blocks would remain, and they would be cab signal blocks. So at the current distant signal (wayside) where you might get an approach to a stop signal at the next interlocking, in 562, that wayside would be gone, but the cab signals would still drop at that same location to an Appraoch in the cabs. In theory it would be easier and cheaper to add more blocks to possibly increase the speeds in 562, but I still believe a combo of both is best, or at least, leave the distant automatic signals in service.

The benefit of waysides is the redunancy of the signal system. Also, being able to anticipate your next signal is nice, because you can see it before you get to it. If im in a location where I can't see the home signal becuase of a bend in the track or hill or whatever, I won't be able to see what the signal is in advance. It might be a stop, it might be a clear. I have no idea. However, with the automatics in 251/261 CSS territory, I can see the progression of the signals down, and while I cna't see the home signal, I can see the Appraoch or the Advance Approach, and I can operate the train accordingly, namely putting on some brakes before the cab signals drop for a smoother ride. In 562, the only way I would know whats going on up ahead is when my cab signals drop, which means I would have to jam on the brakes, to prevent getting a cab signal penalty.

Jtgshu wrote:

nick11a wrote:So, let me get this straight. There are blocks in 562/261 territories, just not siganls for them. Meaning, it is like having ABS 261 track minus the pyhiscal automatic signals.

Is there anyway of knowing where block limits are? If not, I'm assuming there are rules that a train cannot reverse move at all in 562 territory without permission from the dispatcher as they would not know where the block they are occupying ends. Is this correct?

Exactly Nick, there are blocks in 562 territory. Usually they are marked by a signal hut along with impedence bonds inbetween the rails, however, especially on Amtrak, there are some places where they drop without either.

A "quick and dirty" explaination of 562 would be take your favorite line, and go inbetween 2 interlockings. All those automatics inbetween would be gone, the only wayside signals that would remain would be the home signals for the interlockings. Where those automatics were, the blocks would remain, and they would be cab signal blocks. So at the current distant signal (wayside) where you might get an approach to a stop signal at the next interlocking, in 562, that wayside would be gone, but the cab signals would still drop at that same location to an Appraoch in the cabs. In theory it would be easier and cheaper to add more blocks to possibly increase the speeds in 562, but I still believe a combo of both is best, or at least, leave the distant automatic signals in service.

The benefit of waysides is the redunancy of the signal system. Also, being able to anticipate your next signal is nice, because you can see it before you get to it. If im in a location where I can't see the home signal becuase of a bend in the track or hill or whatever, I won't be able to see what the signal is in advance. It might be a stop, it might be a clear. I have no idea. However, with the automatics in 251/261 CSS territory, I can see the progression of the signals down, and while I cna't see the home signal, I can see the Appraoch or the Advance Approach, and I can operate the train accordingly, namely putting on some brakes before the cab signals drop for a smoother ride. In 562, the only way I would know whats going on up ahead is when my cab signals drop, which means I would have to jam on the brakes, to prevent getting a cab signal penalty.

Thanks for the explanation Mr. Jtgshu. Quite clear.

The reason for the distant signal marker on the 80 automatic comming out of dock towards REA is to remind trains operating in cab signal failure that they will be entering 562 territory and the requirements of rule 562 part C or part D applies. Which basically means they are gonna need that C light to get anywhere past REA.

ApproachMedium wrote:The reason for the distant signal marker on the 80 automatic comming out of dock towards REA is to remind trains operating in cab signal failure that they will be entering 562 territory and the requirements of rule 562 part C or part D applies. Which basically means they are gonna need that C light to get anywhere past REA.

Its not on Auto 80 for 1 track is it though.....thats your homework for tomorrow - hahaha

Exactly, however, I was referring to the Distant Signal marker that is still in the North Tube going east (2 track going east) - the South Tube doesn't have one.

I wonder if it was from the days when the High Line and tunnels were still 261, and CP Mid would have been the distant signal to the non-CSS territory that is in the station, east of A.....I dunno. It just seems like it was forgotten because the South Tube doesn't have one.

Jtgshu wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:The reason for the distant signal marker on the 80 automatic comming out of dock towards REA is to remind trains operating in cab signal failure that they will be entering 562 territory and the requirements of rule 562 part C or part D applies. Which basically means they are gonna need that C light to get anywhere past REA.

Its not on Auto 80 for 1 track is it though.....thats your homework for tomorrow - hahaha

Exactly, however, I was referring to the Distant Signal marker that is still in the North Tube going east (2 track going east) - the South Tube doesn't have one.

I wonder if it was from the days when the High Line and tunnels were still 261, and CP Mid would have been the distant signal to the non-CSS territory that is in the station, east of A.....I dunno. It just seems like it was forgotten because the South Tube doesn't have one.

Well according to the book these distant signal markers are on eastbound home signal Rea #1 track, the signal bridge east of harrison station (which is automatic 80) on 2 and 3 track, and then 4450 feet west of CP-MID. They dont say which tracks for CP-Mid so i assume it should be both. It says west of, but it doesnt say in what direction. I have yet to see any distant signal markers in the tunnel but I will have my eyes peeled tomorrow...

ApproachMedium wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:The reason for the distant signal marker on the 80 automatic comming out of dock towards REA is to remind trains operating in cab signal failure that they will be entering 562 territory and the requirements of rule 562 part C or part D applies. Which basically means they are gonna need that C light to get anywhere past REA.

Its not on Auto 80 for 1 track is it though.....thats your homework for tomorrow - hahaha

Exactly, however, I was referring to the Distant Signal marker that is still in the North Tube going east (2 track going east) - the South Tube doesn't have one.

I wonder if it was from the days when the High Line and tunnels were still 261, and CP Mid would have been the distant signal to the non-CSS territory that is in the station, east of A.....I dunno. It just seems like it was forgotten because the South Tube doesn't have one.

Well according to the book these distant signal markers are on eastbound home signal Rea #1 track, the signal bridge east of harrison station (which is automatic 80) on 2 and 3 track, and then 4450 feet west of CP-MID. They dont say which tracks for CP-Mid so i assume it should be both. It says west of, but it doesnt say in what direction. I have yet to see any distant signal markers in the tunnel but I will have my eyes peeled tomorrow...

When they single track in the north tube, look for it. I spotted it coming out of NY. It not in the south tube i believe.

So Jt, youre saying that distant signal marker in the north tube is possibly a remnant of the pre-562 days?

I dunno why it would be in the tunnels - I know the book says they are there, but there simply isn't one in the South Tube, its only in the North Tube, going east. There is no difference inbetween the North Tube vs. the South Tube operating rules wise, so if it was in service, it should be in (or taken out of) both tunnels.

Jtgshu wrote:I dunno why it would be in the tunnels - I know the book says they are there, but there simply isn't one in the South Tube, its only in the North Tube, going east. There is no difference inbetween the North Tube vs. the South Tube operating rules wise, so if it was in service, it should be in (or taken out of) both tunnels.

JT and jimzim, you are disappointing me. This means that you have not read the NYP SI in the Amtrak TT . The distant signal marker is not there from before 562 days. The distant signal marker is a reminder that any train with inoperative cab signals that you will be entering abs territory from the 562 territory and that you could possibly be coming up to a stop signal. The signs are (suppose to be, Ive never seen them) in the tunnel before entering Penn and also down near Rea. JT and Sirsonic , I appreciate your insight into the 562 ABS term that NJT are giving out, but Im not really buying it(No offense )The whole meaning of rule 562 is cab signals without automatic blocks so it would really be false in calling the 562, abs territory, although I would be willing to call it ab territory,haha. The 562 on Amtrak is floating blocks so thats why you wont necessarily see the shack and impedence bonds when cab signals drop.The use of the no ABS signs by Amtrak isnt wrong when entering the 562 territory because as you are aware, theres no ABS signals between A and Rea.I really dont like the use of the no abs signs.I think its overkill.I have been on 2 railroads that use the 562,1 being Septa and I hated there installation because the interlockings didnt show you anything other then cab speed, the blocks were way to long and there was enforced speeds when diverting. So enforced that if you have to divert at an interlocking at 30mph, the cab signals will start dropping a mile and a half in advance.Now Im at Amtrak and I dont think Amtraks rule 562is to bad only because of the fact that the interlockings are so close together that you can see ahead somewhat and try to start planning ahead on how to handle your train.

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:I dunno why it would be in the tunnels - I know the book says they are there, but there simply isn't one in the South Tube, its only in the North Tube, going east. There is no difference inbetween the North Tube vs. the South Tube operating rules wise, so if it was in service, it should be in (or taken out of) both tunnels.

JT and jimzim, you are disappointing me. This means that you have not read the NYP SI in the Amtrak TT . The distant signal marker is not there from before 562 days. The distant signal marker is a reminder that any train with inoperative cab signals that you will be entering abs territory from the 562 territory and that you could possibly be coming up to a stop signal. The signs are (suppose to be, Ive never seen them) in the tunnel before entering Penn and also down near Rea. JT and Sirsonic , I appreciate your insight into the 562 ABS term that NJT are giving out, but Im not really buying it(No offense )The whole meaning of rule 562 is cab signals without automatic blocks so it would really be false in calling the 562, abs territory, although I would be willing to call it ab territory,haha. The 562 on Amtrak is floating blocks so thats why you wont necessarily see the shack and impedence bonds when cab signals drop.The use of the no ABS signs by Amtrak isnt wrong when entering the 562 territory because as you are aware, theres no ABS signals between A and Rea.I really dont like the use of the no abs signs.I think its overkill.I have been on 2 railroads that use the 562,1 being Septa and I hated there installation because the interlockings didnt show you anything other then cab speed, the blocks were way to long and there was enforced speeds when diverting. So enforced that if you have to divert at an interlocking at 30mph, the cab signals will start dropping a mile and a half in advance.Now Im at Amtrak and I dont think Amtraks rule 562is to bad only because of the fact that the interlockings are so close together that you can see ahead somewhat and try to start planning ahead on how to handle your train.

If the distant signal marker was that important in the tunnel, they should replace it in the South Tube eastward where 90 percent of the eastbound trains run!!! Its only in the North Tube going east, which really only happens when they are single tracking or when things are REALLY f-ed up!!!

Oh, I know Amtrak has the floating blocks - I particularlly love how the cabs go from CS 60, to Approach Medium to CS 80, right back to CS60 all within about 100 feet. Might as well throw in a Restricting in there for good measure too, as that usually pops up along the way.

However, when coming up to a stop signal, you can count on where the cabs are gonna drop - usually at an impedence bond and/or signal hut. But I know you Amtrak guys don't have to worry about those "other than clear" signals up there on the High Line or in NYP But trust me - hahahaa

hahahaha just kiddin budd

Jt I know what you mean about how quick those signals change. I love coming east into the tunnel with a clear and you can see markers ahead of you.hahaha.its funny you mention Amtrak putting to much emphasis on things.I think sometimes they don't pyt enough emphasis on other things.oh well .

Usually they are marked by a signal hut along with impedence bonds inbetween the rails, however, especially on Amtrak, there are some places where they drop without either.

Oh, I know Amtrak has the floating blocks - I particularlly love how the cabs go from CS 60, to Approach Medium to CS 80, right back to CS60 all within about 100 feet. Might as well throw in a Restricting in there for good measure too, as that usually pops up along the way.

For anyone wondering how this is pulled off due to the implication of the non-fail safe practive of the CSS code is downgraded by some sort of timer when a train is mid-block, I believe the 80 and 60 codes on Amtrak are implemented using audio frequency codes overlaid on the existing pulse code (which would normally be approach Approach Medium). AF cab signals have the properly of not needing insulated rail joints because the higher frequency signals self-attenuate at pre-determined distances. This lets them take the existing "long block" and upgrade portions of it with 80 and 60 codes. Trains not equipped with the new cab signals will get the fail safe App Med pulse code.

A "quick and dirty" explaination of 562 would be take your favorite line, and go inbetween 2 interlockings. All those automatics inbetween would be gone, the only wayside signals that would remain would be the home signals for the interlockings.

It is standard Amtrak practice to use wayside distant signals in most of their 562 territory. This allows trains running under Rule 280a to approach next interlocking under signal control instead of prepared to stop.

However, with the automatics in 251/261 CSS territory, I can see the progression of the signals down, and while I cna't see the home signal, I can see the Appraoch or the Advance Approach, and I can operate the train accordingly, namely putting on some brakes before the cab signals drop for a smoother ride. In 562, the only way I would know whats going on up ahead is when my cab signals drop, which means I would have to jam on the brakes, to prevent getting a cab signal penalty.

In theory 562 systems require some sort of signal overlap (or marked block limits) else a train stopped right after a block boundary runs the risk of being rear ended by another train still traveling on approach. Most issues with train handling only apply to freight trains that sometimes need to know the difference between Approach and Approach Slow or Advance Approach and Approach Medium, both of which map to the same cab signal aspect. Freight lines using 562 are often engineered so those situations never arise, but passenger lines that optimize their 562 for passenger traffic have to restrict freight operations to ensure safety. Anyway, shame on you for applying the brake before you have to. The ATC on NJT and Amtrak is very conservative (passenger trains can drop from 80 to 45 for a Limited Clear in about 1500 feet in non-CSS territory) and you should stay off the brake until the last moment to avoid that nasty 2-mile approach medium crawl. Run it like PATCO, maximum acceleration, maximum brake.

Jersey_Mike wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:A "quick and dirty" explaination of 562 would be take your favorite line, and go inbetween 2 interlockings. All those automatics inbetween would be gone, the only wayside signals that would remain would be the home signals for the interlockings.

It is standard Amtrak practice to use wayside distant signals in most of their 562 territory. This allows trains running under Rule 280a to approach next interlocking under signal control instead of prepared to stop.

I wouldn't confuse the Approach Normal signal with a regular distant signal. It would only lights up when the dispatcher is working with a train with failed cab signals or if the entire cab signal code has been lost. The entire PVL and almost all of the Amtrak High-Line is 562 and signal are only equipped with the C-Light (280a) at all interlocking on the 562 territory NJ Transit operates on.

280a - CLEAR TO THE NEXT INTERLOCKING

Trains with inoperative cab signals, automatic train stop, or speed control must proceed on fixed signal indication (and cab signal indication, if operable) not exceeding 79MPH. Trains with inoperative cab signals must approach the next home signal prepared to stop, unless Approach Normal (Rule 280b)is displayed on a distant signal prior to the home signal.

280b - APPROACH NORMAL

Trains without operative cab signals must proceed on fixed signal indication not exceeding 79MPH.

You won't see the N-light on the Northeast Corridor from Newark to New York because the blocks are so short. In most cases, you can already see your advance signal before you take the next one. The PV line however, I could see the N-light in use there considering that distance between controlled points, but NJT cose not to utilize that signal.

[quote="BuddSilverliner269"
JT and jimzim, you are disappointing me. This means that you have not read the NYP SI in the Amtrak TT . The distant signal marker is not there from before 562 days. The distant signal marker is a reminder that any train with inoperative cab signals that you will be entering abs territory from the 562 territory and that you could possibly be coming up to a stop signal. The signs are (suppose to be, Ive never seen them) in the tunnel before entering Penn and also down near Rea. [/quote]

Just asking out of curiosity, but wouldnt the D plate in the tunnels be unnecessary? If youre running with inoperative cabs under rule 554 or 556 you would have to prepare to stop anyway, no?