New Drive for HO Commuter Cars

Hi all,

Here are some preview photos of IHP's new drive for our HO scale MU commuter cars. Shown are Silverliner V and NYC ACMU prototypes.

http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hoimages/s5drive01.jpg
http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hoimages/s5drive02.jpg
http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hoimages/s5drive03.jpg
http://ihphobby.tripod.com/hoimages/acmupowered01.jpg

Several prototypes of the drive are currently testing by several friends of IHP. They have already provided us with feedback for modification and refinement. Production will start shortly. The first cars to be sold with the new drive will be Silverliner IVs and Silverliner Vs for the SEPTA Transit Gift Shop. The photos show prototypes, and changes have already been made since the photos were taken. This drive represents a year of development and testing.

The truck is an 8'6" wheelbase, making it ideal for commuter cars built since the 1960s. It consists of a vertically-mounted can motor driving both axles of the power truck through idler gears. It drives nickel-silver wheels and picks up on all wheels through phosphor-bronze pickup wipers on both trucks. Tests have been promising and encouraging.

More details to follow after production begins.

Thanks,

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

When will the IHP site be back up?

ns3010 wrote:When will the IHP site be back up?

I'm wondering the same thing!

Mike,

I see you put alot of time and work into making this drive! Fantastic! Now, If we can persuade you to make a prototype of a plastic built truck like this for the commuter cars, arrows etc that would be even better! I would defiantly pay good money for some more replacements for my comet cars. The old metal trucks you made were great but getting a plastic truck would make it a lot better for me to build the power pickup system I need to build to make the cab car decoders work.

Mike@IHP wrote:The truck is an 8'6" wheelbase, making it ideal for commuter cars built since the 1960s. It consists of a vertically-mounted can motor driving both axles of the power truck through idler gears. It drives nickel-silver wheels and picks up on all wheels through phosphor-bronze pickup wipers on both trucks. Tests have been promising and encouraging.

Will you have the proper truck sideframes available as well? Thanks for making this product available!

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

Mike@IHP wrote:The truck is an 8'6" wheelbase, making it ideal for commuter cars built since the 1960s. It consists of a vertically-mounted can motor driving both axles of the power truck through idler gears. It drives nickel-silver wheels and picks up on all wheels through phosphor-bronze pickup wipers on both trucks. Tests have been promising and encouraging.

Will you have the proper truck sideframes available as well? Thanks for making this product available!

-otto-

I wonder this myself. Mike sent me one of the powered frames for testing. It doesn't look bad, but it uses its "Express" Style trucks to power the model, as opposed to the detailed metal ones. the side frame detail is pretty basic on this frame.

Then again, i've been told this is the "toy" frame meant for the SEPTA store silverliners, and that he had a "better" drive in mind for those who wanted it. I'm not sure if i have any pictures or video, i'll have to take some Thursday night. My home layout is still down.

Hi guys,

Hope everyone had a good holiday. I will try to answer some of the questions you've posted and bring you up to date, as a lot's happened here.

Firstly, an update: The drive is now in production and the first run of cars for the SEPTA Store will be available in the Store this week, snow permitting. The first cars are Silverliner IV single units that are simplified versions being produced exclusively for the Store (to meet their price requirements) that will be decorated with SEPTA logos. They are expecting to retail the miniatures for around $182 each, not bad for RTR powered single units. They have dummy pantographs and black window inserts (no interior), but have the same great body and underbody detail, the only prototypically accurate Silverliner IVs you'll ever get (I did say miniatures, not models!). They also have heavy metal weights for traction, and coupler pockets that accept Kadee or E-Z Mate couplers. Just unscrew the covers and add whatever you want to use (medium or long shank recommended). However, only single units will be available in this 'budget' version.

IHP is now SEPTA's chief model supplier (their words, not ours!) and you'll be seeing more SEPTA-specific models available through the Store from IHP in the future in the form of both powered and display models. A sample of what's to come shortly: Powered HO Kawasaki (single-end) LRV models for under $150, and Adtranz M4 EL cars, 2-car sets, both powered and display versions at prices you can afford. A sample of the Kawasaki LRV is now running on their HO display layout, and some of you have already seen and handled the M4 preproduction sample shell. Not to mention SEPTA and Rotem-approved HO Silverliner V cars, those will enter production as soon as the decals are ready. Same deal as the Silverliner IVs: there will be one 'budget' version single-unit for the Store and more detailed single and pair versions direct from IHP; more on that format below.

A more sophisticated version of the Silverliner IV (single and pairs) with interior, clear window inserts, more detail and a sprung, working Faively pantograph will be available direct from IHP (and on a limited basis through the SEPTA Store and other dealers) but will be sold at an accordingly higher price. It is unlikely that we will produce any more kits of these cars as previously planned, as the existence of the power drive now makes that format kind of redundant. These 'Premier' cars will be offered undecorated from the website, but IHP will be producing and making SEPTA decals available from all eras of their careers (including the current scheme, which I don't even personally really like!;-)) to enable you to decorate and number them as you wish.

Now that the drive is in production, we're naturally considering what else to use it in. You've seen some prototypes for Reading and MNCR MUs, and we're adapting it to the M1, M3, all the Arrow classes and the Highliner cars, too. Can't say at this point what will be first, since there have been discussions concerning certain MU models with other clients and the models will all be done in interval production runs. Of course, any all-new models will also use the drive if possible. Now that it exists, it should be milked for all it's worth, right?

This will be the definitive version of the drive for the immediate future. The production drive has a better quality motor than the test units pictured or sent out for testing. (Chris B, you've provided some tips that have been incorporated into the production drive, thanks much!) If anyone else has feedback from the production drives, please feel free to pass it along. We'll consider any reasonable and professional input on them.

The drive is designed to accept any truck sideframe so long as it's the right size for the truck, it can be adapted to fit (witness the Taylor truck sideframes on the Reading MU sample and the outboard-bearing truck sideframes on the ACMU). Silverliner V cars will have the correct truck sideframes and disc brake details, too, the truck is designed to accomodate everything.

This marks the beginning of a new era for IHP and our commuter model production. The drive adds another dimension to an already superior product.

Anthony R., as to the replacement trucks and possible plastic versions of the GSI truck, I'll have to get back to you on that. It might just be feasible, not to mention cheaper, as the cast metal trucks are starting to get expensive.

Oh, and the IHP website needs some work, which I will be performing myself, as I can get to doing the work. I'll try not to keep it down for long but there are some features I've wanted to add and change for awhile now.

Hope this makes things clear. 2011 will be a great year!

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Mike@IHP wrote: Firstly, an update: The drive is now in production and the first run of cars for the SEPTA Store will be available in the Store this week, snow permitting. The first cars are Silverliner IV single units that are simplified versions being produced exclusively for the Store (to meet their price requirements) that will be decorated with SEPTA logos. They are expecting to retail the miniatures for around $182 each, not bad for RTR powered single units. They have dummy pantographs and black window inserts (no interior), but have the same great body and underbody detail, the only prototypically accurate Silverliner IVs you'll ever get (I did say miniatures, not models!). They also have heavy metal weights for traction, and coupler pockets that accept Kadee or E-Z Mate couplers. Just unscrew the covers and add whatever you want to use (medium or long shank recommended). However, only single units will be available in this 'budget' version.

$182 for a "Budget Version"?

Ken S. wrote:$182 for a "Budget Version"?

Yeah, that does seem a little up there, until you think about it. A Stanton drive goes for about $90 once taxes and shipping are applied. The express kit as a dummy only costed a little over $50. That brings down a powered version to about $140 if you do you own work.

"if you do your own work" being the key phrase. These units come painted and already built. Its a terrible truth, but i don't see MU cars EVER being cheap (which is a shame, because unlike a locomotive, where one or two is fine, you DO need at least 6 cars per train in most cases). I do wish more of the cheap "express" kits get produced, since coming down to $50 is a great start. for the price of an atlas locomotive, you can at least get a pair of MUs and by a few more every once in a while. You can worry about powering it at your own discretion, but at least you'd have the cars to work with. I was under the impression that this was how the Express series kits were meant to go down, but they appear to also only show up in short runs.

Mike@IHP wrote:A more sophisticated version of the Silverliner IV (single and pairs) with interior, clear window inserts, more detail and a sprung, working Faively pantograph will be available direct from IHP (and on a limited basis through the SEPTA Store and other dealers) but will be sold at an accordingly higher price. It is unlikely that we will produce any more kits of these cars as previously planned, as the existence of the power drive now makes that format kind of redundant. These 'Premier' cars will be offered undecorated from the website, but IHP will be producing and making SEPTA decals available from all eras of their careers (including the current scheme, which I don't even personally really like!;-)) to enable you to decorate and number them as you wish.

Wait, are you still offering the standard series kits? I thought your premier series were the RTR built up Silverliners, such as those Silverliner IIIs.

Now that the drive is in production, we're naturally considering what else to use it in. You've seen some prototypes for Reading and MNCR MUs, and we're adapting it to the M1, M3, all the Arrow classes and the Highliner cars, too. Can't say at this point what will be first, since there have been discussions concerning certain MU models with other clients and the models will all be done in interval production runs. Of course, any all-new models will also use the drive if possible. Now that it exists, it should be milked for all it's worth, right?

Speaking of interval production, how regular will they be? Once again, the Express kits seemed pretty popular to me (a lot of people asking about them), but i remember seeing them up twice on the Ebay store, and that was it. when is the next chance to snag a few more?

This will be the definitive version of the drive for the immediate future. The production drive has a better quality motor than the test units pictured or sent out for testing. (Chris B, you've provided some tips that have been incorporated into the production drive, thanks much!) If anyone else has feedback from the production drives, please feel free to pass it along. We'll consider any reasonable and professional input on them.

Anytime, It was a lot of fun to run with that drive. I had the unit running on the last show day of this year (I'll definitely bring it back for the remainder of the show season, from January to February). It got a lot of notice, and i was hoping to add a few more Silverliner IVs to the consist soon.

green_elite_cab wrote:

Ken S. wrote:$182 for a "Budget Version"?

Yeah, that does seem a little up there, until you think about it. A Stanton drive goes for about $90 once taxes and shipping are applied. The express kit as a dummy only costed a little over $50. That brings down a powered version to about $140 if you do you own work.

"if you do your own work" being the key phrase. These units come painted and already built. Its a terrible truth, but i don't see MU cars EVER being cheap (which is a shame, because unlike a locomotive, where one or two is fine, you DO need at least 6 cars per train in most cases). I do wish more of the cheap "express" kits get produced, since coming down to $50 is a great start. for the price of an atlas locomotive, you can at least get a pair of MUs and by a few more every once in a while. You can worry about powering it at your own discretion, but at least you'd have the cars to work with. I was under the impression that this was how the Express series kits were meant to go down, but they appear to also only show up in short runs.

When you also take into account all the development time, resources and effort in the parts and now the drives, trust me, these things are a BARGAIN at $182. And, then consider that IHP isn't even getting the full $182, we're getting less than that because the Store gets a dealer discount.

Don't know about doing more Express Series kits,it may be more worth it to just do RTR models. SEPTA is still interested in nonpowered versions of the cars. We might offer them that way for those that want to power them their own way or if they just want trailers. The price would still be affordable.

Chris, you're right, and very few people are buying large fleets of model MUs. Most people are just buying a few cars for one or two short trains. Then again, people will find the money to fund their desires in a system such as ours. The manufacturer's sole concern, aside from making a quality product (which IHP does without question) is to make sure they get the appropriate return for their efforts.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Mike@IHP wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote:

Ken S. wrote:$182 for a "Budget Version"?

Yeah, that does seem a little up there, until you think about it. A Stanton drive goes for about $90 once taxes and shipping are applied. The express kit as a dummy only costed a little over $50. That brings down a powered version to about $140 if you do you own work.

"if you do your own work" being the key phrase. These units come painted and already built. Its a terrible truth, but i don't see MU cars EVER being cheap (which is a shame, because unlike a locomotive, where one or two is fine, you DO need at least 6 cars per train in most cases). I do wish more of the cheap "express" kits get produced, since coming down to $50 is a great start. for the price of an atlas locomotive, you can at least get a pair of MUs and by a few more every once in a while. You can worry about powering it at your own discretion, but at least you'd have the cars to work with. I was under the impression that this was how the Express series kits were meant to go down, but they appear to also only show up in short runs.

When you also take into account all the development time, resources and effort in the parts and now the drives, trust me, these things are a BARGAIN at $182. And, then consider that IHP isn't even getting the full $182, we're getting less than that because the Store gets a dealer discount.

Don't know about doing more Express Series kits,it may be more worth it to just do RTR models. SEPTA is still interested in nonpowered versions of the cars. We might offer them that way for those that want to power them their own way or if they just want trailers. The price would still be affordable.

Chris, you're right, and very few people are buying large fleets of model MUs. Most people are just buying a few cars for one or two short trains. Then again, people will find the money to fund their desires in a system such as ours. The manufacturer's sole concern, aside from making a quality product (which IHP does without question) is to make sure they get the appropriate return for their efforts.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

I would have thought that $100 would be a more acceptable price for these since for some reason I equate your Express Series with Proto 1000 models and if you shop around, you can get four of their subway cars for about the same price.

I would have thought that $100 would be a more acceptable price for these since for some reason I equate your Express Series with Proto 1000 models and if you shop around, you can get four of their subway cars for about the same price.

Nope, Apples and Oranges. Proto 1000 plastic models made in China and IHP models produced in the USA are two different animals. Like comparing plastic and brass.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Mike@IHP wrote:

I would have thought that $100 would be a more acceptable price for these since for some reason I equate your Express Series with Proto 1000 models and if you shop around, you can get four of their subway cars for about the same price.

Nope, Apples and Oranges. Proto 1000 plastic models made in China and IHP models produced in the USA are two different animals. Like comparing plastic and brass.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Even still that is a bit much for a "Budget" model.

Mike@IHP wrote: Don't know about doing more Express Series kits,it may be more worth it to just do RTR models. SEPTA is still interested in nonpowered versions of the cars. We might offer them that way for those that want to power them their own way or if they just want trailers. The price would still be affordable.

Yes, but not as affordable as $50 per express kit. The Express kits were simple, really good kits at a truly affordable price. This actually puts larger MU numbers within reach of people.

the stuff at the SEPTA store may be affordable for a built up model, but its not really that affordable when it comes to someone's wallet.

Chris, you're right, and very few people are buying large fleets of model MUs. Most people are just buying a few cars for one or two short trains. Then again, people will find the money to fund their desires in a system such as ours. The manufacturer's sole concern, aside from making a quality product (which IHP does without question) is to make sure they get the appropriate return for their efforts.

I think Availability and Delays are what is preventing people from buying large fleets.

The runs of models are short, and are often unexpected. It can be hard to justify spending several hundred to a thousand dollars in a short period of time. One could save up, but when models are sporadically available, it becomes difficult to maintain the cash reserves in the model train budget. I think this forces people into buying only a handful. You can only put so much money in at one time before your wife or girlfriend looks at you funny and asks "if you have this much spare cash why aren't you taking me to more fancy restaurants!?!".

Again, if you have those express kits more readily available, i think you will start to see people building up larger fleets of MUs, or at least they'll have more MUs than it takes to make one off peak-train. I've visited the SEPTA store several times in the past few weeks, and each time i could have easily bought another express kit if they were sitting there on the shelf.

Ken S. wrote:Even still that is a bit much for a "Budget" model.

I wouldn't say that, considering the work that is going into them. Its Affordable in the sense that if you had anyone else build and power one of those express kits, they'd charge you at least an additional $100 for their time and skills. Custom builds aren't cheap.

That said, you're correct in saying its not a budget model either. $182 is surpassing the lower limits of what would be considered a high end locomotive, but we're only getting the "miniature" version, not a model with fancy details on it. I could buy a married pair Arrow III standard series for that price. I'm thinking the married pair kit is better for my budget because at least i'm getting two highly detailed cars at a price of ~$90 each. unlike the IHP models, the powered drives from companies like the Black Beetle from Steampower in Australia and now NWSL with their Stanton drives are far more available. They may still add additional cost, but you can buy them one or two at a time as your budget allows, and it doesn't take to much work to install one.