New Drive for HO Commuter Cars

green_elite_cab wrote:

Mike@IHP wrote: Don't know about doing more Express Series kits,it may be more worth it to just do RTR models. SEPTA is still interested in nonpowered versions of the cars. We might offer them that way for those that want to power them their own way or if they just want trailers. The price would still be affordable.

Yes, but not as affordable as $50 per express kit. The Express kits were simple, really good kits at a truly affordable price. This actually puts larger MU numbers within reach of people.

the stuff at the SEPTA store may be affordable for a built up model, but its not really that affordable when it comes to someone's wallet.

Chris, you're right, and very few people are buying large fleets of model MUs. Most people are just buying a few cars for one or two short trains. Then again, people will find the money to fund their desires in a system such as ours. The manufacturer's sole concern, aside from making a quality product (which IHP does without question) is to make sure they get the appropriate return for their efforts.

I think Availability and Delays are what is preventing people from buying large fleets.

The runs of models are short, and are often unexpected. It can be hard to justify spending several hundred to a thousand dollars in a short period of time. One could save up, but when models are sporadically available, it becomes difficult to maintain the cash reserves in the model train budget. I think this forces people into buying only a handful. You can only put so much money in at one time before your wife or girlfriend looks at you funny and asks "if you have this much spare cash why aren't you taking me to more fancy restaurants!?!".

Again, if you have those express kits more readily available, i think you will start to see people building up larger fleets of MUs, or at least they'll have more MUs than it takes to make one off peak-train. I've visited the SEPTA store several times in the past few weeks, and each time i could have easily bought another express kit if they were sitting there on the shelf.

Ken S. wrote:Even still that is a bit much for a "Budget" model.

I wouldn't say that, considering the work that is going into them. Its Affordable in the sense that if you had anyone else build and power one of those express kits, they'd charge you at least an additional $100 for their time and skills. Custom builds aren't cheap.

That said, you're correct in saying its not a budget model either. $182 is surpassing the lower limits of what would be considered a high end locomotive, but we're only getting the "miniature" version, not a model with fancy details on it. I could buy a married pair Arrow III standard series for that price. I'm thinking the married pair kit is better for my budget because at least i'm getting two highly detailed cars at a price of ~$90 each. unlike the IHP models, the powered drives from companies like the Black Beetle from Steampower in Australia and now NWSL with their Stanton drives are far more available. They may still add additional cost, but you can buy them one or two at a time as your budget allows, and it doesn't take to much work to install one.

Well guys, I don't know what to say. I suppose 'budget' may not have been the right term for me to use. We're quibbling over terms here! Fortunately, I'm not using it in any official capacity to describe these cars.

Still, the price is set, it isn't coming down, and more RTR models are in the offing from IHP, and yes, they will command more money. Quality costs money and you get what you pay for. The market as a whole has been trending towards RTR models for some time. The dynamics and paradigms of selling kits vs. built-up models has been debated here and elsewhere. Some companies choose one or the other depending on their capabilities and required profit margins and targeted market. It's part of a route I feel IHP needs to take to evolve. Sure, price will be an issue for some, and people will bitch, but you can't please everyone. All you can do in my position is to make the best product you can and try to get what you need to get for it. I also think that people will spend their money to buy something if it's what they want and the quality is there. Hey, 21 years of experience in the hobby business has taught me nothing if not that.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

My complaint about the price could also refer to another Proto 1000 model, the RDC came with an interior piece and lighting and the asking price for the last run of those is half the asking price for the Silverliner. I only referenced the NYCTA cars since they were a niche market much like the SIlverliner is. Of course, who's to say that Bachmann doesn't come out with a Silverliner themselves since they've already done the Acela and the CRC Domes that run up in Alaska.

Id say in todays market of modeling, a limited production fully assembled painted running cast resin kit of a single MU car is very reasonable at mikes price. While resin castings tend to be cheaper than brass, the assembly, detailing and painting of any kit items you would pay a professional service to do is going to be pricey. I dont think Mike is being unfair in what he is asking for here, after all the guy makes his living off this stuff. Its not just a side project.

Ken S. wrote:My complaint about the price could also refer to another Proto 1000 model, the RDC came with an interior piece and lighting and the asking price for the last run of those is half the asking price for the Silverliner. I only referenced the NYCTA cars since they were a niche market much like the SIlverliner is. Of course, who's to say that Bachmann doesn't come out with a Silverliner themselves since they've already done the Acela and the CRC Domes that run up in Alaska.

Ken, the truth is that those models are made in China at about $5 each and thousands were made. IHP is making the Silverliners in the USA in much smaller quantities at a time for a much smaller market at a higher cost in material and components, not to mention labour, which requires the same skills no matter who is building them. Making these Silverliners is more like making brass models, which are made by hand in limited quantities for a specific market. As I said, apples and oranges. And, those plastic, affordable Proto 1000 subway cars have some documented accuracy problems, they skimped on some things to keep the price down. And don't think that just because it's made in China it's always going to be cheaper. Rapido's GORGEOUS UA Turbotrain is pricey not just because it's got detail and features up its wazoo, it's also a train that few people remember and I'm sure his price is partially a hedging of his bets on its projected market and sales of it. That always plays a factor when a model is designed.

That said, I am also a scale warship modeler, and since Trumpeter announced a 1:350 scale plastic kit of the Italian WW2 battle ship ROMA, and Fujimi announced a 1:700 plastic kit of the Japanese 1921 battle cruiser AMAGI (which was never even built!), I am beginning to think that anything is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath for Bachmann to make something as unique as a Silverliner.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Mike@IHP wrote:

Ken S. wrote:My complaint about the price could also refer to another Proto 1000 model, the RDC came with an interior piece and lighting and the asking price for the last run of those is half the asking price for the Silverliner. I only referenced the NYCTA cars since they were a niche market much like the SIlverliner is. Of course, who's to say that Bachmann doesn't come out with a Silverliner themselves since they've already done the Acela and the CRC Domes that run up in Alaska.

Ken, the truth is that those models are made in China at about $5 each and thousands were made. IHP is making the Silverliners in the USA in much smaller quantities at a time for a much smaller market at a higher cost in material and components, not to mention labour, which requires the same skills no matter who is building them. Making these Silverliners is more like making brass models, which are made by hand in limited quantities for a specific market. As I said, apples and oranges. And, those plastic, affordable Proto 1000 subway cars have some documented accuracy problems, they skimped on some things to keep the price down. And don't think that just because it's made in China it's always going to be cheaper. Rapido's GORGEOUS UA Turbotrain is pricey not just because it's got detail and features up its wazoo, it's also a train that few people remember and I'm sure his price is partially a hedging of his bets on its projected market and sales of it. That always plays a factor when a model is designed.

That said, I am also a scale warship modeler, and since Trumpeter announced a 1:350 scale plastic kit of the Italian WW2 battle ship ROMA, and Fujimi announced a 1:700 plastic kit of the Japanese 1921 battle cruiser AMAGI (which was never even built!), I am beginning to think that anything is possible, but I wouldn't hold my breath for Bachmann to make something as unique as a Silverliner.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

I never expected to see the Bachmann E60 reissued.

That was a given. Bachmann didnt really do much of anything there except change the pilots and put in a normalish motor drive. Its still a bachmann and it still cant pull worth a crap. if it still had a pancake motor it might as well be the original 80s model.

ApproachMedium wrote:That was a given. Bachmann didnt really do much of anything there except change the pilots and put in a normalish motor drive. Its still a bachmann and it still cant pull worth a crap. if it still had a pancake motor it might as well be the original 80s model.

My 8 Heritage Fleet cars beg to differ on the subject of the new E60's pulling power.

Mike@IHP wrote: Well guys, I don't know what to say. I suppose 'budget' may not have been the right term for me to use. We're quibbling over terms here! Fortunately, I'm not using it in any official capacity to describe these cars.

Still, the price is set, it isn't coming down, and more RTR models are in the offing from IHP, and yes, they will command more money. Quality costs money and you get what you pay for. The market as a whole has been trending towards RTR models for some time. The dynamics and paradigms of selling kits vs. built-up models has been debated here and elsewhere. Some companies choose one or the other depending on their capabilities and required profit margins and targeted market. It's part of a route I feel IHP needs to take to evolve. Sure, price will be an issue for some, and people will bitch, but you can't please everyone. All you can do in my position is to make the best product you can and try to get what you need to get for it. I also think that people will spend their money to buy something if it's what they want and the quality is there. Hey, 21 years of experience in the hobby business has taught me nothing if not that.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Thats fine, I'm totally understanding that business comes first (better some silverliners then none!) i'm just really banking on more express kits, since that's what is most easily afforded by me, and i have the skills to assemble the kits myself, not to mention i enjoy assembling different projects. I just built up a pair of your Silverliner IIIs i got a hold of, and i'm going to have to dig up some Patco decals for those cars.

If kits really weren't making any money, then i suppose you have to do what you have to, but we'll see how it goes. Is there a price estimate for the unpowered rtrs? are the built up premiere cars going to be similarly priced to the old Silverliner III premiere cars?

Ken S. wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:That was a given. Bachmann didnt really do much of anything there except change the pilots and put in a normalish motor drive. Its still a bachmann and it still cant pull worth a crap. if it still had a pancake motor it might as well be the original 80s model.

My 8 Heritage Fleet cars beg to differ on the subject of the new E60's pulling power.

Try some Amfleets there buddy. Heritage cars actually roll halfway decent. Oh and throw in a 3-4% grade, it doesnt do it. Had to keep giving my friends the AEM-7 for help.

ApproachMedium wrote:

Ken S. wrote:

ApproachMedium wrote:That was a given. Bachmann didnt really do much of anything there except change the pilots and put in a normalish motor drive. Its still a bachmann and it still cant pull worth a crap. if it still had a pancake motor it might as well be the original 80s model.

My 8 Heritage Fleet cars beg to differ on the subject of the new E60's pulling power.

Try some Amfleets there buddy. Heritage cars actually roll halfway decent. Oh and throw in a 3-4% grade, it doesnt do it. Had to keep giving my friends the AEM-7 for help.

This. I used to think, "Oh, the Walthers Amfleets are no problem. My AEM-7 can handle it." Then, I joined a club and watched my AEM-7 slow down and slip on a 4% incline with an S Curve at the top with five Amfleets and a Viewliner dragging like a sprinter pulling a sled with five fat guys. (CAB can attest that I spent a good three weeks fiddling with Amfleet trucks replacing wheelsets, testing lubes, and figuring out how to get the cars rolling around the layout and up the nastiest grade with the least bit of fuss.) Now, an American GK E-60 with their ancient Athearn mechanisms and a little bullfrog snot can haul amazingly well, but I wouldn't waste my time bothering with the new Bachmann E60 after seeing videos of it jerking about at low speeds with its cheap, one flywheel design. Never mind that the body tooling is barely modified from their original 1970s model with the same junky window inserts and only slightly-improved nasty pantographs so that even if it hauls decently, the detailing is still cheap.

green_elite_cab wrote:

Mike@IHP wrote: Well guys, I don't know what to say. I suppose 'budget' may not have been the right term for me to use. We're quibbling over terms here! Fortunately, I'm not using it in any official capacity to describe these cars.

Still, the price is set, it isn't coming down, and more RTR models are in the offing from IHP, and yes, they will command more money. Quality costs money and you get what you pay for. The market as a whole has been trending towards RTR models for some time. The dynamics and paradigms of selling kits vs. built-up models has been debated here and elsewhere. Some companies choose one or the other depending on their capabilities and required profit margins and targeted market. It's part of a route I feel IHP needs to take to evolve. Sure, price will be an issue for some, and people will bitch, but you can't please everyone. All you can do in my position is to make the best product you can and try to get what you need to get for it. I also think that people will spend their money to buy something if it's what they want and the quality is there. Hey, 21 years of experience in the hobby business has taught me nothing if not that.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Thats fine, I'm totally understanding that business comes first (better some silverliners then none!) i'm just really banking on more express kits, since that's what is most easily afforded by me, and i have the skills to assemble the kits myself, not to mention i enjoy assembling different projects. I just built up a pair of your Silverliner IIIs i got a hold of, and i'm going to have to dig up some Patco decals for those cars.

If kits really weren't making any money, then i suppose you have to do what you have to, but we'll see how it goes. Is there a price estimate for the unpowered rtrs? are the built up premiere cars going to be similarly priced to the old Silverliner III premiere cars?

Let me second that. Even if the market is trending towards RTR models, kits are a much appreciated option especially for a model with multiple variations. I missed out on the first run of Standard Series Arrow IIIs and Express Silverliner IVs because at the time I was "a bit" preoccupied with employment and financial issues to be spending my life's savings on kits of any variety. I've been waiting for more of the Silverliner IV kits--especially the married pairs as I've mentioned a few times--but new kits as far as I'm aware have yet to be released. However, the nice thing about kits is that they do allow for the modeler to customize something to his whims. The kits are the best alternative--and cheapest to mass-produce--when one customer wants, say, an Alclad finish and Reading details like CAB, and another wants to focus on easy assembly/disassembly for installing an interior and modern SEPTA decals like me, and a third might just want a simple painted finish and SEPTA block decals. As far as I'm concerned, I would much prefer for there to still be kits on the market because I can modify it as I build it rather than spend more money on an RTR model, have to take it apart anyway for modifications, and possibly risk damaging it like what happened with a Walthers Gallery Car with window sets that cracked when I tried to pop them out. With profit margins in mind since no profit for the manufacturer means no models period, it is my hope that the kits will still be released even with the increase in RTR model production.

Yes for what its worth spending the time to find the american gk is better. Many many more repowering options available there that the "bolt on". The body detail is better and can be improved easily.

I found the best way with least modification to improve rolling is to add 3 coats of lock ease to both truck bearing and axle on amfleets.

Mirai, don't forget that I have those Walthers windows here for you. Just send me your address and I will send them to you.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Okay..............

I need to spend more time on this forum. I just made a post on the Metroliner thread and had not seen this thread until after I posted. This looks intriguing. I haven't read through all of the posts yet, but I'm wondering if this would be an ideal drive for my Metros? Is the motor/truck combo available by itself?

AntonioFP45 wrote:Okay..............

I need to spend more time on this forum. I just made a post on the Metroliner thread and had not seen this thread until after I posted. This looks intriguing. I haven't read through all of the posts yet, but I'm wondering if this would be an ideal drive for my Metros? Is the motor/truck combo available by itself?

I'm thinkign the black beetle truck would be better, it seems to go faster than the Stantons. I COULD squeeze reasonable speed from a Stanton drive, but it seems to put lots of wear on the gears very quickly.

I don't see why speed should be such an issue. Have you clocked the stanton in smph? id imagine unless you want metros running at 160smph then this is an issue but 80 and 90mph mus not so much.