New Drive for HO Commuter Cars

ApproachMedium wrote:I don't see why speed should be such an issue. Have you clocked the stanton in smph? id imagine unless you want metros running at 160smph then this is an issue but 80 and 90mph mus not so much.

Trust me, they aren't going that fast. while i don't have an exact speed, i know its not making fast enough to look like 80 or 90. Even if it was, it was putting so much wear on the gearing that it already needs to be replaced with a sturdier metal gear.

Well, this forum is about sharing ideas, info, opinons, etc. I did mention that I'd like my Metroliners to be able to run at 70-80 scale mph.......smoothly. But I'd want the drive, whether Stanton or Black Beetle, to be able to pull the weight of 5 Metros weighing about 9 ounces each without straining. That's why I want to make sure that the drive I purchase will be able to handle that stress without my having to worry about straining gears or frying the motor.

Well someone needs to do some serious review of the stanton drive. The original PDT drives from nwsl worked excellent on switchers made of lead with two of these trucks. They could outpull anything but a hobbytown. Knowing that it concerns me that chris had issies with the gears due to weight. I can't say its speed because I have plenty of junk that runs high speeds with plastic gears and never had an issue. Even the old life like power trucks the motors would usually give up the ghost long before the gears died at high speeds.

Well, i sent in a request for brass gears (since i couldn't find them on their site) and this is the response i got.

NWSL Tech Support wrote:Hi Chris,

Very sorrry about this. I've seen this two other times (out of a few hundred) so it remains an elusive little bug that we'd like to nail down. We tested these things pretty hard for hundreds of hours non-stop, so we've got a little gremlin at work here (although I have a hunch...)

Bottom line; please send us the unit and I'll rebuild it and return it to you asap. We stand behind these units completely. Oh, the Stanton uses a custom gear that's not listed on the site anywhere because they were designed for specific use with the Stanton drive. Hopefully you will not see this problem again, so let me rebuild the one you have and we'll go from there. Thanks!

I should note that the Stanton DID initially run fast enough for what Antonio wanted to do, but after i installed it in the silverliner III, it slowed down a bit. I added two complete "sticks" of 1/4 ounce A-Line sticky weights to the car, and that brought performance back up to fast, but the unpowered silverliner in tow seemed to slow it down. Performance gradually decreased until i figured out that the gears had worn down on one axle, which was OBVIOUSLY draining performance. These are running off of IHP's metal GSI 70 ton trucks (borrowed from Arrow III kits until i get more motor drives for them to fill in the "defecit"), and as well as they roll, they don't roll NEARLY as well as the old bachmann cars (in fact, i'm not sure anything does... which is odd to say for a nearly 40 year old bachmann model).

AntonioFP45 wrote:Well, this forum is about sharing ideas, info, opinons, etc. I did mention that I'd like my Metroliners to be able to run at 70-80 scale mph.......smoothly. But I'd want the drive, whether Stanton or Black Beetle, to be able to pull the weight of 5 Metros weighing about 9 ounces each without straining. That's why I want to make sure that the drive I purchase will be able to handle that stress without my having to worry about straining gears or frying the motor.

To be fair, my axles were damaged, and this appears to be a glitch rather than an overall failure of the truck. Initial tests i ran show that it should certainly be "fast enough".

Also, realistically, underfloor powered trucks as a rule typically can't handle that many cars by themselves. If you put TWO of them in one unit, with a lot of weight, you could theoretically get there. I've seen several SWs and GPs that were made more powerful than their conventionally driven (IE Athearn/atlas) drives. I prefer a scheme of 1 powered truck per pair, since this works out a little better in that each unit would be able to drive itself (1 powered truck per car being ideal but expensive).

I don't have a scale MPH detector, but i think the Stanton can reach those speeds (it was fairly quick initially). Upon closer inspection, the gear problem along with decoder fine-tuning appears to be the culprit behind my slower speeds. I'll try to take a video of my unit going at top speed in its "good" direction. the black beetle i KNOW goes faster, but that Arrow car is temporarily out of commission until i clean it bolster (don't ask).

Overall, I still back the Stanton drive

ApproachMedium wrote:Well someone needs to do some serious review of the stanton drive. The original PDT drives from nwsl worked excellent on switchers made of lead with two of these trucks. They could outpull anything but a hobbytown. Knowing that it concerns me that chris had issies with the gears due to weight. I can't say its speed because I have plenty of junk that runs high speeds with plastic gears and never had an issue. Even the old life like power trucks the motors would usually give up the ghost long before the gears died at high speeds.

I think it really is just a problem with these gears, and not the Stanton as a whole. I'll probably still opt for brass gears, to be safe, but we'll see. I can't imagine the noise is much louder.

I like how everytime IHP announces a new project, everyone complains about it and the state of the commuter/transit hobby in general.

Here are some facts as I know them:

1) Commuter/transit modeling is a NICHE of a NICHE HOBBY... Which means it is very difficult to make a profit and produce quality models en masse. Models that do become available WILL NOT BE CHEAP.

1a) "Expensive" is a relative term, depending on your age and your station in life. When you're 12, a $75 model seems like a lot (It is when your allowance is only $5 a week). When you're 21, not too bad (the cost of a night out with your friends), and when you're 31, it's no worse than filling up the tank of your car with gas (filled up my Jeep's 19 gallon tank for about $60 today...)!!

2) Very few people have the space to actually MODEL commuter and transit operations, and most of us are looking to collect the models because they are "cool" or we are so familiar with them. There is a difference between "want" and "need."

3) For the very few folks who are actually modeling commuter and transit operations, the cost of acquiring a fleet is not an issue for them. They recognize the cost of realizing their dream.

In other words, if you are building an actual model railroad where commuter or transit is the main function, then you have determined what you need to construct an operating fleet. Perhaps you enjoy the challenge of kitbashing and scratchbuilding. Otherwise, anytime someone makes a limited edition model available in resin, you pounce on it. Do they cost a little more? You better believe it. The manufacturer must cover his costs plus a little extra so he can develop new models after the fact.

Life-Like came out with their R-16 NYC Subway cars a few years ago. Way cool! The price for a four-car set was not too bad, $150 retail. You can get them for a little less, now. Did I want them? Heck yes! Do I need them? Not really, they don't really fit with anything I'm planning to run, so they would just be an expensive novelty or collect dust. But it's very cool that Life-Like took a risk and made some mass-produced Subway cars! Wonder if it panned out for them? Now that Walthers owns LL, I doubt we'll see something that cool again...

So let's lay off these tired arguments and face facts.

-otto-

Mike@IHP wrote:Well guys, I don't know what to say. I suppose 'budget' may not have been the right term for me to use. We're quibbling over terms here! Fortunately, I'm not using it in any official capacity to describe these cars.

Still, the price is set, it isn't coming down, and more RTR models are in the offing from IHP, and yes, they will command more money. Quality costs money and you get what you pay for. The market as a whole has been trending towards RTR models for some time. The dynamics and paradigms of selling kits vs. built-up models has been debated here and elsewhere. Some companies choose one or the other depending on their capabilities and required profit margins and targeted market. It's part of a route I feel IHP needs to take to evolve. Sure, price will be an issue for some, and people will bitch, but you can't please everyone. All you can do in my position is to make the best product you can and try to get what you need to get for it. I also think that people will spend their money to buy something if it's what they want and the quality is there. Hey, 21 years of experience in the hobby business has taught me nothing if not that.

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

Well, i got a good look at both the powered and Unpowered versions of the SEPTA store's Silverliner IVs. Fortuneately, the unpowered price is not so high. At ~$80 a piece, they're about as expensive as any of IHP's other single car offerings, and its already built.

I "Had" complaints, but i think the initial upset about loosing the kit versions may be more of an issue than it really was. Consider this:

1). The RTR has wheels. You didn't get wheels with the kit
2). the "decals" are just printed pieces of paper. It sucks for the block logo people, but i can't imagine it would be too difficult to remove. I suspect more people are interested in the current scheme, and Joe sells these decals.
3). The silver paint looks just like the silver paint on factory painted am-fleets and Comets by Walthers and bachmann.
4). its assembled if you're satisfied with the way it is.

I'm not going to complain about the dummy pantographs. thats just unrealistic as no one sells good pantographs! but they do look like they're glued on, so i recommend care removing them, just so that you don't bust a cast on insulator.

I would like to know what kind of paint is used on the IHP Silverliner IV, and how well the windows are glued in. If the paint can be stripped, and the windows popped out easily, then repainting will be a breeze. I'm not sure you can paint over the silver paint and still get the same reflective finish, but if i could, that would also be great, i could just mask off the ends and paint the body.

I didn't get a chance to run the "production" powered version, which has all the tweaks and improvements that mine does not have. I'd like to check that out if i get a chance.

I should point out that the new RTR powered version is cheaper than buying a stanton or similar drive and installing it in the Unpowered version, unless you can find the powered trucks for less.

I'll probably buy a few more of the unpowered Silverliner IVs, its not as rough as i thought it would be.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I like how everytime IHP announces a new project, everyone complains about it and the state of the commuter/transit hobby in general.

Here are some facts as I know them:

1) Commuter/transit modeling is a NICHE of a NICHE HOBBY... Which means it is very difficult to make a profit and produce quality models en masse. Models that do become available WILL NOT BE CHEAP.

1a) "Expensive" is a relative term, depending on your age and your station in life. When you're 12, a $75 model seems like a lot (It is when your allowance is only $5 a week). When you're 21, not too bad (the cost of a night out with your friends), and when you're 31, it's no worse than filling up the tank of your car with gas (filled up my Jeep's 19 gallon tank for about $60 today...)!!

2) Very few people have the space to actually MODEL commuter and transit operations, and most of us are looking to collect the models because they are "cool" or we are so familiar with them. There is a difference between "want" and "need."

3) For the very few folks who are actually modeling commuter and transit operations, the cost of acquiring a fleet is not an issue for them. They recognize the cost of realizing their dream.

In other words, if you are building an actual model railroad where commuter or transit is the main function, then you have determined what you need to construct an operating fleet. Perhaps you enjoy the challenge of kitbashing and scratchbuilding. Otherwise, anytime someone makes a limited edition model available in resin, you pounce on it. Do they cost a little more? You better believe it. The manufacturer must cover his costs plus a little extra so he can develop new models after the fact.

Life-Like came out with their R-16 NYC Subway cars a few years ago. Way cool! The price for a four-car set was not too bad, $150 retail. You can get them for a little less, now. Did I want them? Heck yes! Do I need them? Not really, they don't really fit with anything I'm planning to run, so they would just be an expensive novelty or collect dust. But it's very cool that Life-Like took a risk and made some mass-produced Subway cars! Wonder if it panned out for them? Now that Walthers owns LL, I doubt we'll see something that cool again...

So let's lay off these tired arguments and face facts.

-otto-

Ah, beat me to it. I think most of the complaints on this forum though, was the cost for what you "get". These same cars were just over $50, for only minimal effort in assembly, and they were a "clean slate" for whatever paint of modifications i wanted. With the ~$80 RTR cars, it adds considerable work on my part and an extra $30 which did not really seem so necessary at the time. I'm never going to expect to see Mike's stuff selling for $25 bucks at a train show, and i'm more than willing to pay the costs for the fancy models. I've paid MSRP for a chunk of my Arrows and my PATCO cars. It just sucks to have had a great kit dangled in front of me and swapped for something less ideal.


Otherwise, i agree with you. the Commuter niche is a rough business, and its going to be rough buying the models.

green_elite_cab wrote:

I should point out that the new RTR powered version is cheaper than buying a stanton or similar drive and installing it in the Unpowered version, unless you can find the powered trucks for less.

As a point of reference, we do offer the Stanton drives at a discount for those interested. Here is a link to the page: http://islandmodelworks.com/wheels.html $60.00 with a model purchase or $66.00 without a model purchase. It beats the MSRP of $85.00. We only offer the 8' - 6" WB with 33" wheels, however, we can custom order any combination that you require for the same price.

Good to know you are selling those at good discount. I will probably have to pick up some when I am finally ready to power some MUs.

green_elite_cab wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote:I like how everytime IHP announces a new project, everyone complains about it and the state of the commuter/transit hobby in general.

Here are some facts as I know them:

1) Commuter/transit modeling is a NICHE of a NICHE HOBBY... Which means it is very difficult to make a profit and produce quality models en masse. Models that do become available WILL NOT BE CHEAP.

1a) "Expensive" is a relative term, depending on your age and your station in life. When you're 12, a $75 model seems like a lot (It is when your allowance is only $5 a week). When you're 21, not too bad (the cost of a night out with your friends), and when you're 31, it's no worse than filling up the tank of your car with gas (filled up my Jeep's 19 gallon tank for about $60 today...)!!

2) Very few people have the space to actually MODEL commuter and transit operations, and most of us are looking to collect the models because they are "cool" or we are so familiar with them. There is a difference between "want" and "need."

3) For the very few folks who are actually modeling commuter and transit operations, the cost of acquiring a fleet is not an issue for them. They recognize the cost of realizing their dream.

In other words, if you are building an actual model railroad where commuter or transit is the main function, then you have determined what you need to construct an operating fleet. Perhaps you enjoy the challenge of kitbashing and scratchbuilding. Otherwise, anytime someone makes a limited edition model available in resin, you pounce on it. Do they cost a little more? You better believe it. The manufacturer must cover his costs plus a little extra so he can develop new models after the fact.

Life-Like came out with their R-16 NYC Subway cars a few years ago. Way cool! The price for a four-car set was not too bad, $150 retail. You can get them for a little less, now. Did I want them? Heck yes! Do I need them? Not really, they don't really fit with anything I'm planning to run, so they would just be an expensive novelty or collect dust. But it's very cool that Life-Like took a risk and made some mass-produced Subway cars! Wonder if it panned out for them? Now that Walthers owns LL, I doubt we'll see something that cool again...

So let's lay off these tired arguments and face facts.

-otto-

Ah, beat me to it. I think most of the complaints on this forum though, was the cost for what you "get". These same cars were just over $50, for only minimal effort in assembly, and they were a "clean slate" for whatever paint of modifications i wanted. With the ~$80 RTR cars, it adds considerable work on my part and an extra $30 which did not really seem so necessary at the time. I'm never going to expect to see Mike's stuff selling for $25 bucks at a train show, and i'm more than willing to pay the costs for the fancy models. I've paid MSRP for a chunk of my Arrows and my PATCO cars. It just sucks to have had a great kit dangled in front of me and swapped for something less ideal.


Otherwise, i agree with you. the Commuter niche is a rough business, and its going to be rough buying the models.

Yes, the emotion over this makes the current crisis in Egypt look tame by comparison.

Let's have some perspective here. It will only be rough buying the models (or ANYTHING, really) if you are short of money or on a budget. The manufacturers want to make the best possible model they can, but that usually means a lot of investment, which must be recouped in sales of the models. They price models according to the costs, not according to greed. The price is not too high, but rather like the price of gas in the USA today it's probably too low when all things are considered. But it's not the manufacturer's fault if you can't afford the models. Don't gripe to them. Get a job, or a higher-paying one, or arrange your finances so you can afford them. It's also not the manufacturer's fault if the market is too small. If the costs have to be recouped over a smaller number of models, that's simple mathematics. They've done their job. If you can't afford it, someone else will. Some folks will be disappointed, but that's what re-runs are for.

And, let's consider the manufacturer in this particular case. IHP's models are not made in China, they are made here in the USA. I own and operate IHP, and I put 12-14 hour days into IHP doing patternwork, mouldmaking, casting, assembly, painting, and packaging. I have some help and some subcontractors for certain parts and stages of the work, and we are all exposed to the hazards of the job in the form of exposure to chemicals, metals, paint, fumes from everything, dust, tools and physical exertion. Not to mention time spent arranging production or purchase of this and that, keeping up with orders, paperwork, inquiries, taxes, shop upkeep and maintenance..... To see folks griping about the PALTRY few dollars we ask in return for all of this is kind of insulting on a level.

But, I digress. The new drive is working well so far. Some other new features are being developed for IHP MU cars, too. More info on those as they develop. Regardless of the price, it's IHP's mission to bring you the best possible models for the money. We think that with the Silverliner IV at least, we've succeeded. And wait until you see the Vs and the Reading MUs!

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com