M9 Cars Design Delivery and Acceptance

And what were the last 3rd rail electrics built for the North American market? The New York Central's 1929-vintage P motors?

For new-builds, I believe it was the 1930 steeple cabs built for the South Shore line. Although strictly a 1500vDC catenary line, the motors had third rail collectors in case the parent company wanted to shift the motors to the CA&E or CNSM sister lines.

You also have the 1930 order of R-2's for NYC's West Side freight and Detroit River tunnels third rail, later sold to CSS and converted from 600vDC third rail to 1500vDC catenary.

As for rebuilds, you have the 1952 Niagara Junction motors that were built for NJ catenary but rebuilt for third rail use in GCT.

we are digressing, as no part of the power car or its propulsion would share one item with those older cousins other than wheel profile.

Absolutely correct. A legacy third rail product will not have much influence on a new design other than the basic ladder frame and B-B configuration. If it's monocoque, you wont even have the ladder frame.

I would posit that a flexibility to operate with standard AAR couplers might be a good idea, but I'm not in charge...

Obscure traction trivia is a bit fun for me, as the interurban railroads made the midwest a traction capital at one time to rival the northeast or Europe.

I don't think it makes much sense to order power cars, when you've already got dual mode locomotives. Just use bilevel coaches in diesel territory.

I don't think it makes much sense to use bi-level coaches in diesel territory. First there aren't enough P32's just laying around during peak travel times to start making more trains. Second, diesel territory is not where the need for increased capacity lies. Third, it wouldn't be practical to run diesel equipment making frequent stops in electric territory -the place where increased capacity is located.(the train would never get to track speed)

Any bi-levels would have to be EMU's: http://www.mta.info/lirr/about/Procurem ... Status.htm

Current Status

On June 6, 2012 the Long Island Rail Road Company (LIRR) and Metro-North Commuter Railroad Company (MCNR) (collectively, the Railroads) solicited Phase I–Qualification Proposals from interested firms for the design, manufacture, test and delivery of M-9 Passenger Cars together with certain Apparatus (spare parts, special tools, bench test equipment, etc. as designated in the Contract Documents). The Railroads will be procuring 76 M-9 Married-Pair EMU Cars for LIRR in the Base Order and up to 600 additional M-9 Cars by exercise of multiple options under the M-9 Contract. Request for Phase II–Technical and Price Proposals was released on October 12, 2012 to those firms that were deemed qualified (or conditionally qualified) to participate in Phase II of this procurement. Contract award is expected to be made in the 3nd Quarter of 2013 with delivery of the Base Order Production Cars commencing in July 2017.

LIRR also intends to procure 160 M-9A Cars, which will be solicited separately and in a subsequent RFP pursuant to Federal procurement laws and regulations. In a Request for Expression of Interest dated on or about September 1, 2011, LIRR initially determined that the M-9 and M-9A Cars would be procured in two separate but related procurements concurrently. However, LIRR has now determined that it will purchase the M-9A Cars in a subsequent procurement, which is scheduled to be solicited in the 2nd qtr. of 2013. The M-9A Cars will be solicited based upon substantially identical Technical Provisions as the M-9 Cars, and must be interoperable with M-9 Cars.

And here: http://www.mta.info/lirr/about/Procurement/ads/929.htm

RFP #929
M-9 Passengers Cars

The Long Island Rail Road Company (“LIRR”), as the lead agency, on behalf of itself and Metro-North Commuter Railroad Company (“MNR” and together with LIRR, the “Railroads”) hereby solicit Joint Procurement, Phase 1–Qualification Proposals from firms for the design, manufacture, test and delivery of 76 M-9 Married-Pair EMU Cars (38 A Cars and 38 B Cars) for LIRR, which together with certain Apparatus (spare parts, special tools, bench test equipment, etc., as specified in the Contract Documents), are considered the "Base Order Cars". As part of this procurement, the Railroads also intend to procure up to 600 additional M-9, including up to 280 MNCR Cars.

LIRR also intends to procure 160 M-9A Cars, which will be solicited separately and in a subsequent RFP pursuant to Federal procurement laws and regulations. In previous Requests for Expression of Interest published between August 2008 and September 2011, LIRR initially determined that the M-9 and M-9A Cars would be procured in two separate but related procurements concurrently. However, LIRR has now determined that it will purchase the M-9A Cars in a subsequent procurement, which is scheduled for June 2013. The M-9A Cars will be solicited based upon substantially identical Technical Provisions as the M-9 Cars, and must be interoperable with M-9 Cars. To the extent feasible, the Railroads will seek to maximize the commonality of Parts and Systems between the M-9 and M-9A. The M-9 Contractor will be responsible for providing complete technical information and rights to such information so as to permit the subsequent production of fully interoperable M-9A Cars.

In this Phase I of the procurement, the Railroads are soliciting Phase I–Qualification Proposals utilizing a competitively negotiated RFP procedure. Phase I will consist of (a) a Responsibility review of the Proposer, which will include consideration of the Proposer’s skill, integrity and financial capacity (“Responsibility Review”) and (b) a comprehensive review of the Proposer’s Technical and Organizational Qualifications (“Phase 1­–Qualification”). The Railroads will also conduct a review of the Responsibility and qualifications of any Subcontractor upon which the Proposer intends to rely for its own Responsibility or Phase 1– Qualification.

To enhance competition, the Railroads are encouraging experienced Carbuilders who have not previously provided commuter electric rail cars for LIRR or MNR to participate in this procurement. In this regard, the Phase 1 RFP reduces the prior experience requirement to be considered “qualified” to submit a Phase I–Qualification Proposal, e.g. the Railroads are no longer requiring a Carbuilder to have prior experience in designing and furnishing a U.S. commuter rail FRA compliant car. Although U.S. commuter rail experience is not mandatory, Carbuilders must still have adequate experience dealing with key technical issues such as those related to FRA crash worthiness and LIRR/MNR’s vigorous reliability, maintainability, warranty and quality requirements. Carbuilders with such experience are encouraged to participate in Phase 1 of the procurement by submitting a Phase 1–Qualification Proposal.

A Proposer that is found Responsible and meets the Phase I–Qualification (or a conditional Phase I–Qualification), as determined in the sole discretion of the Railroads, will be invited to submit a Phase II–Price and Technical Proposal during Phase II of this procurement.

Proposers are advised that the Railroads reserve the right to conditionally qualify any Proposer that submits a Phase 1–Qualification Proposal where the Railroads cannot ascertain with a reasonable degree of certainty that the Proposer is able to meet one or more requirements of the Phase I–Qualification. A Proposer that is conditionally qualified will be invited to submit a Phase II–Price and Technical Proposal but will be required to validate, by documentation or otherwise and to the satisfaction of the Railroads, any Phase I requirement during Phase II of the RFP process.

Proposals that are found in Phase II to be in the Competitive Range (as will be defined in the Phase II RFP) will be short-listed to participate in Phase III, i.e., submission of a Best and Final Offer.

A Proposers’ Conference and Site Tour (including a LIRR car shop and facilities tour) is scheduled for 6/20/12 at 93-59 183rd Street, Hollis, New York. (MNR may separately schedule a tour of its facilities.) Existing Railroad equipment, including M-7s and M-8s, as applicable, will be part of the Site Tour. It is highly recommended that all Proposers and prospective Subcontractors, including MBE/WBEs (as defined below), make a reservation with the Contracting Officer to attend this conference. No other such conference is planned. Railroad personnel with administrative, contracting, equipment and operational areas of expertise will be available at the Proposers’ Conference to respond to Proposers, including those who have not done business with the MTA or the Railroads prior to this procurement.

Proposers and prospective Subcontractors are advised that it is the policy of LIRR, MNR and the MTA that Minority and Women-Owned Business Enterprises (“MBE/WBEs”), which are certified as such by Empire State Development, Division of Minority and Women’s Business Development be provided the maximum feasible opportunity to participate in the performance of their contracts. Accordingly, the resulting M-9 Contract will be subject to the provisions of Article 15-A of the New York Executive Law, its implementing regulations set forth in Chapter XIV, Parts 140 to 145 of Title 5 NYCRR and all MBE/WBE terms and conditions set forth in the M-9 Contract Documents.

Responses to this RFP are not offers and will not be accepted by the Railroads to form a binding contract. Responses to this advertisement shall not constitute proposals. The Railroads, at their sole discretion, reserve the right, without liability, to modify and/or withdraw this RFP at any time without explanation, and/or to modify or waive any requirements contained in this RFP.

All interested Proposers may obtain a copy of the RFP package by contacting Ms. Maura Kelly via e-mail at [email protected] no later than June 12, 2012.


Procurement & Logistics Department
90-27 Sutphin Boulevard - Mail Code 0335
Jamaica, NY 11435

There's a "top" link here: http://www.mta.info/lirr/about/Procurement/ which you can follow to documents. I haven't gotten into them yet.

From back in 2008: http://www.mta.info/lirr/about/Procurem ... -RFI-1.pdf and more current:

I've found another PDF here: http://www.mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/ ... _MNRLI.pdf that has minutes from last January. I had found a bunch of stuff yesterday, but I've been recovering from surgery and neglected to save the links. I'm sure I can find it again.

In any case, I've always understood the M-9's to be LIRR's fleet needs for ESA and to replace M-3's. The M-3a replacement would go for MNRR too. Since they're to be EMU's and for the Harlem and Hudson, and they are stressing interoperability, I assume they'll have the over-under shoe.

Much of the other discussion we've been having here is likely related to this: MNRR Joint EMU Procurement with LIRR - Alternative to M9

I think this is where we're getting into bi-levels, diesel, etc., the next-gen stuff after the M-9's that would also work on the New Haven.

I think by interoperability they mean that the M9's will be interoperable with the M9A's. Not necessarily MNR M9A's being interoperable with LIRR M9A's. Similar to the way that M2's M4's and M6's are interoperable, but M3's and M7's are not. Even the M1's didn't play nice with M3's.

If they're worried about capacity on some peak trains, couldn't they run 10-12 cars in a software mode that cuts the horsepower down to 800 for 10 car trains and 667 for 12 cars trains (actually a little less because of hotel power loads) on the northern section? Also, do they currently kick out AC and heat loads during acceleration? My car does that, and it's an easy way to get more acceleration out of less capacity, be it an electric substation power or the power of a gas engine. Seems like some computer-based power management would be cheaper than ripping the electric infrastructure out and starting from scratch... As it is most commuter trains in the US run on like 350-500hp per car, not 1000.

What about a power car that could also draw from catenary?

Ain't gonna happen any time soon. The power cars in question would be kept strictly to the Hudson and Harlem lines making the use of a pantograph unnecessary. Plus the New Haven Line is getting new cars as it is. That being said I can definitely see the New Haven Line seeing trains of power cars and coaches instead of MUs for the GCT-New Haven expresses (and perhaps GCT-New London through trains should they ever materialize).

The New Haven line is not in need of new cars, the 405 M-8's will be more than sufficient for now.
Also CDOT has not shown any interest, the alternative to M-9 is being concidered for replacement of the M-3a's
If M-9a's are choosen they must be able to couple and operate with M-7a's

NH2060 wrote:

khansingh wrote:What about a power car that could also draw from catenary?

Ain't gonna happen any time soon. The power cars in question would be kept strictly to the Hudson and Harlem lines making the use of a pantograph unnecessary. Plus the New Haven Line is getting new cars as it is. That being said I can definitely see the New Haven Line seeing trains of power cars and coaches instead of MUs for the GCT-New Haven expresses (and perhaps GCT-New London through trains should they ever materialize).

That doesn't make much sense, as they still have to run on third rail down to GCT. Also, the traffic levels don't support running an 8-10 car set out to NLC. SLE needs electric gear bad, but they don't need 8-10 car trains anytime soon.

I'm sure they wouldn't mind 8-10 car trains though.

Gonna be interesting to see what the finished product looks like when all is said and done...