Housatonic Railroad Thread (Maybrook, Berkshire, Pittsfield)

[Backshophoss]

F-line,with all the"shell" companies intangled with HRRC,is there enough evidence to get the AG's in Conn and Mass
to at least invesagate HRRC's dealings with the states,and finally track down where the donated materials went,
to get charges of fraud and miss use of state $$$$?
That could force HRRC to finally sell off and close shop for good.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Massachusetts just played its Godfather move by buying the line. That killed the Coltsville Terminal shell, and now the only party they deal with is the Danbury Terminal operating shell. Litigation would've been pointless, because for how many years that would take to resolve Berkshire Scenic is going to be the one to suffer and possibly go out of business as a result. The buyout--despite being cloaked in a lot of signal-to-noise about Gov. Patrick's whimsical passenger proposal, was the correctly expedient option. They keep a nonprofit that's important to the Berkshires' tourism industry in business, get rid of the shell most likely to cause them trouble, get their oversight to police Housy's safety record and police where it applies state-arranged shortline aid, and the total cost probably ends up lower than if they tried to eminent domain.


As for CDOT, why bother? From a perch on the Danbury commuter rail platform they see...

-- To their north Massachusetts just took care of the Coltsville Terminal problem that vultured their rail donation. MassDOT is patroling the border.
-- To their west the MTA closed up the same cross-border loophole years ago by buying out all of Maybrook Properties' NYS holdings
-- To their east P&W is laying in wait for the nod to re-litigate the Maybrook.

They don't have to do anything except wait. Colin Pease will stop getting his phone calls returned by easily-distracted politicians and local newspaper reporters when the last of the air seeps out of this passenger proposal...CDOT doesn't have to lift a finger because it refused to acknowledge the existence of that fake proposal in the first place. They pulled all their grant apps long ago...they're not throwing any good money after bad. Even if they did start releasing some grants the absolute worst that could happen is something intended for the CDOT-owned trackage gets installed on the HRCC-owned trackage. Big freakin' deal...New Milford's track conditions are just as deplorable, so mission accomplished all the same. Sit, wait, and when they get desperate for cash again with no snake oil left to offer then make the Godfather offer to buy out Maybrook Properties. It'll likewise be cheaper in the long run to do it that way rather than by force.

And if HRCC wants to cause trouble, that's where P&W's sledgehammer does all the dirty work for them.



Now...remember, the operating agreement is tilted way far in Housy's favor. So you're not simply going to remove them as operator unless they want to go voluntarily. That WILL be an overpay neither state wants to make. But follow the Housian (or Guilfordian) logic here. If they have to raid the petty cash drawer by liquidating Maybrook Properties (and they will), it's just Danbury Terminal--the operating subsidiary--left standing. They have no leverage left to play, no get rich quick schemes left to pull. They either get to work operating a railroad and living within their means operating the railroad...or they fold and take the final cash-out. These guys do not, and have not for decades, had any interest in operating a railroad. These clowns aren't suddenly gonna decide "We'll show them! We'll start making profits off freight deliveries and then they'll never get rid of us!" Grifters gonna grift. When there is nothing left to grift for, they're just gonna their check and go quietly. Nobody needs to force the issue. The states have all the leverage, all the protection. Just sit back and wait. A few months ago it wasn't that clear-cut. Now it is. Just sit back and wait.

[Backshophoss]

So the only option is to sit back and wait till HRRC crys "uncle" and sells out, the best way to get them to sell out quick
might be cutting P+W legal beagles loose?

[Greg Moore]

Great analysis and I agree with you F-line. As someone who has lived along the Housy for part of my life and has a special fondness for it, I'd love to see it succeed.

And I think you're right, under proper management, which would include good neighborly relations, a railroad could succeed on this line.

I've been having this discussion with my father a bit.

I do disagree a bit on passenger service. I think it's inevitable.

But the idea is to start with reasonable expectations, NOT the Housy plan that included fairy dust and a miracle.

The northwest corner of Connecticut and southwest corner of Massachusetts has a large weekend population.

Work on serving this in a reasonable manner. A Friday train leaving GCT at say 5, arriving in North Canaan at 8:30. This can return on Sunday on a similar schedule.
If you want and can, do an extra turn Saturday southbound to bring locals into NYC for the weekend and return them Sunday.

Don't try to do large number of trains. It won't work. But give folks, especially millennials the opportunity to ditch their cars (or at least cut back to one car).

This part CT can use the economic growth.

So F-Line, want to go into the short-line business together?

[Gilbert B Norman]

From Marriott Biscayne Bay Miami--

I follow this topic, whoops Epic, and still await some overriding argument to what I have held since matriculating at South Kent School during 1956.

Litchfield County is a transportation wasteland - and that is how "the money" want it. It is not only transportation, but as Mr. Moore noted, any economic development. There was some in New Milford, but I guarantee you, the monies locals, such as a "dollar a year" teacher at School had no use for the industrial development.

Funny how I'm "not exactly" expecting to hop off "The Litchfield" ( roundly the Weekend extra on Mr. Moore's suggested schedule) at South Kent and hoof up Spooner Hill for my 55th Reunion next year.

[BandA]

What happens to the freight service as we wait?

[Greg Moore]

What happens to the freight service as we wait?

It continues to derail. :-/

[J.D. Lang]

What happens to the freight service as we wait?

Hopefully they can hang onto the customers that are out there until this whole charade plays out. In the meantime lets hope nothing ends up in the Housatonic River especially the placarded stuff.
J.L.

[JRG]

Speaking for myself and not for BSRM in any capacity, to add some interesting history to the conversation and for the "intellectual exercise of what might have been:" when the Massachusetts portion of the Berkshire Line was owned by Boston & Maine proper in 1984, BSRM began tourist passenger service over the line. This service continued into the Guildford ownership years when sometime in the late 1980's - I think 1988 - ownership of the Berkshire Line from CP150 to the CT border was offered to the BSRM by Guilford leadership. The BSRM Board of Directors at the time was split between professional railroaders and non-railroaders. Unfortunately, the non-railroaders held the majority, were intimidated by the responsibilities associated with track maintenance and common carrier obligations and passed on the opportunity. The professional railroaders and their supporters knew this was a bad decision (they were correct). Service ended for the first time in 1990. This decision haunts BSRM to this day.

It took over ten years of lobbying to restore tourist passenger service to the line in 2003 (after tax payers paid for improvements in return for operating rights and a tort liability law was passed). BSRM has worked tirelessly to promote the economic benefits of a successful tourist passenger operation in the Berkshires, but unfortunately a variety of barriers has been placed in front of the organization for many, many years. While other communities have embraced, enjoyed and promoted their tourist rail operations (Strasburg, Kennebunkport, RMNE, Valley/Essex, Conway, Cuyahoya Scenic, etc.) the Berkshires has yet to fully realize the benefits.

A little more interesting history for you: In the early 1990's, BSRM leadership began expressing interest in operating service on the North Adams Branch - the whole thing - potentially linking South County with North County. It was a good proposal, with MoCA in its infancy and the transition from industrial based economy to tourism based economy beginning to take shape. Meetings and conversations took place; then the rail trail fever took off and the tracks came up. Now, 20 years later, we are putting (or attempting to put) a mile of that track back. It's been and continues to be, an interesting ride with stories made for a book.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

From Marriott Biscayne Bay Miami--

I follow this topic, whoops Epic, and still await some overriding argument to what I have held since matriculating at South Kent School during 1956.

Litchfield County is a transportation wasteland - and that is how "the money" want it. It is not only transportation, but as Mr. Moore noted, any economic development. There was some in New Milford, but I guarantee you, the monies locals, such as a "dollar a year" teacher at School had no use for the industrial development.

Funny how I'm "not exactly" expecting to hop off "The Litchfield" ( roundly the Weekend extra on Mr. Moore's suggested schedule) at South Kent and hoof up Spooner Hill for my 55th Reunion next year.

Yeah. There is no commuter rail potential north of the badly-needed New Milford extension. Every possible Berkshire Line stop location north of New Milford ends up being no more than 10 miles to an Upper Harlem Line station. That's one of several reasons why the demand cuts off so sharply at NM as well as the north-south traffic on US 7. If a Wassaic-Millerton extension has demand (it does...it just doesn't yet crack Metro North's Top 10 service needs list and the state line makes for an inconvenient divide on who is allowed to pay for it) that catchment area for MTA service would stretch all the way up to North Caanan. The locals know this because the ones who work in New York already use the Harlem Line, and that's why the 'good fences make good neighbors' mentality of Litchfield County is going to hold firm in the face of any serious talk about passenger service (the Massachusetts proposal correctly not being taken seriously by much of anyone). The residents who are isolated and most likely to benefit from the nearer-by one-seat are the middle-lower income ones who don't have the political pull. Litchfield County is very stratified and quite a bit politically messed-up place because of this divide, but unfortunately the ranks of rich folks who want a quiet place in the country to be suspicious of their neighbors is growing while the laborers-with-pickup-trucks ranks have been declining with the declining opportunities out in the exurbs. This isn't going to change anytime soon. CDOT knows this, and the locals know this. And everyone who lives there pretty well knows Danbury Line to New Milford + service increases and Upper Harlem service increases with some not-far-fetched hope of Millerton going on the table in 20 years increases their mobility a lot more than a couple token trains per day running an hour north on the Berkshire.


Most definitely there is excursion service upside on the whole corridor. You've got BSRM anchoring the Massachusetts end and DRM's awesome collection of rolling stock anchoring the south end. All it really takes is enough safety improvements for trains not to fall off the tracks (i.e. not the $150M price tag for 'good' Class 1 track at full state-of-repair, but the dozen-$M bailout for 'tolerable-enough' track) and a little funding shot in the arm to the museums for there to be some really interesting tourism possibilities across the whole corridor. Naugy, Valley Line type stuff. That wouldn't take very much in a post-HRCC world to get going. I mean...the states are pretty much going to be stuck with the maint bailout bill regardless, as that's the necessary price of corridor preservation in Housy's wake. There is no doubt both of them will be looking at the tourism/excursion angle and the nonprofits to help justify some of that bailout in addition to doling out freight trackage rights to a creative- and trustworthy-enough skunkworks outfit. The tourism angle is the pot-sweetener to the local Chambers of Commerce to get them behind a new freight carrier.

[NH2060]

There is no commuter rail potential north of the badly-needed New Milford extension. Every possible Berkshire Line stop location north of New Milford ends up being no more than 10 miles to an Upper Harlem Line station. That's one of several reasons why the demand cuts off so sharply at NM as well as the north-south traffic on US 7. If a Wassaic-Millerton extension has demand (it does...it just doesn't yet crack Metro North's Top 10 service needs list and the state line makes for an inconvenient divide on who is allowed to pay for it) that catchment area for MTA service would stretch all the way up to North Caanan... And everyone who lives there pretty well knows Danbury Line to New Milford + service increases and Upper Harlem service increases with some not-far-fetched hope of Millerton going on the table in 20 years increases their mobility a lot more than a couple token trains per day running an hour north on the Berkshire.

Could there -in theory, mind you- be a cost sharing agreement of some sort made between CT and NY (similar to having PA chip in for the Gateway Project)?

1) It's not exactly a secret that a fair number of CT residents use the Upper Harlem and..

2) There has obviously been no desire on MNR's part to keep those CT, MA, and VT plates out of the parking lots @ Dover Plains, Wassaic, etc. (or even to charge them an "out of state fee") even though those plates make up a sizeable amount of the "parking population" at those stops. So CT clearly benefits just as much from the Harlem Line (a 100% NY state service) as the Rte. 22 corridor does and NY state has no problem with that.

Most definitely there is excursion service upside on the whole corridor. You've got BSRM anchoring the Massachusetts end and DRM's awesome collection of rolling stock anchoring the south end. All it really takes is enough safety improvements for trains not to fall off the tracks (i.e. not the $150M price tag for 'good' Class 1 track at full state-of-repair, but the dozen-$M bailout for 'tolerable-enough' track) and a little funding shot in the arm to the museums for there to be some really interesting tourism possibilities across the whole corridor. Naugy, Valley Line type stuff. That wouldn't take very much in a post-HRCC world to get going. I mean...the states are pretty much going to be stuck with the maint bailout bill regardless, as that's the necessary price of corridor preservation in Housy's wake. There is no doubt both of them will be looking at the tourism/excursion angle and the nonprofits to help justify some of that bailout in addition to doling out freight trackage rights to a creative- and trustworthy-enough skunkworks outfit. The tourism angle is the pot-sweetener to the local Chambers of Commerce to get them behind a new freight carrier.

This would make for a good RMNE/Naugy "annex" or even as it's long term permanent base. Lots more running room and scenery for the tourist ops. The current Naugy setup -to me- seems rather out of place given that the "Upper Naugy" is more or less a potential Waterbury Branch extension (rebranded as the "Naugatuck Valley Line"? ) in the making down the road even if it's not in the cards for the next 15-20 years. As those parts of Litchfield, New Haven, and Hartford counties grow in population over that period of time there will be increased usage of area roads and highways (including Rte. 8 north of WTBY). If re-establishing regular passenger service over that portion of the line north of New Milford/Kent isn't viable due to the territory served then Torrington could as it's further east from the Berkshire -and therefore the Harlem- and is west enough from the Hartford Line that there aren't any duplicate routes. And if commuter rail does indeed come to the "Upper Naugy" that puts the RMNE in an awkward position of running short tourist trains on a line that has multiple commuter runs per day up and down the entire length.

And if the RMNE (or the Danbury Railroad Museum) were to move to the Berkshire Line in Litchfield Co. not only would they have more running room for longer excursions, etc. but they could even run a seasonal connecting shuttle train to/from MNR @ New Milford to however far up the line they see fit. Doesn't even have to be more than 2 or so coaches (perhaps they could get a hold of a pair of those ex-NJT cars for a song if they didn't want to use any of the museum equipment) it would just have to be timed with 1 Friday arriving and 1 Sunday departing train, etc.

One way or another it's a win-win for either the RMNE, DRM, or even an expanded BSRM (unless they're for some reason restricted to operate only within MA) to set up shop on the Berkshire Line in CT.

[F-line to Dudley via Park]

Could there -in theory, mind you- be a cost sharing agreement of some sort made between CT and NY (similar to having PA chip in for the Gateway Project)?

1) It's not exactly a secret that a fair number of CT residents use the Upper Harlem and..

2) There has obviously been no desire on MNR's part to keep those CT, MA, and VT plates out of the parking lots @ Dover Plains, Wassaic, etc. (or even to charge them an "out of state fee") even though those plates make up a sizeable amount of the "parking population" at those stops. So CT clearly benefits just as much from the Harlem Line (a 100% NY state service) as the Rte. 22 corridor does and NY state has no problem with that.

No. Because there's no cross-state operating compact here. It's just license plates in somebody's lot paying the same parking fees as every other license plate in somebody's lot. There's no way you can plausibly propose to Litchfield County, "Hey, you know what would be a great idea! Let's willingly turn over some of our tax dollars for a capital project in another state. Who's with me??!" Reality just doesn't work that way. The state line is what it is.

This would make for a good RMNE/Naugy "annex" or even as it's long term permanent base. Lots more running room and scenery for the tourist ops. The current Naugy setup -to me- seems rather out of place given that the "Upper Naugy" is more or less a potential Waterbury Branch extension (rebranded as the "Naugatuck Valley Line"? ) in the making down the road even if it's not in the cards for the next 15-20 years. As those parts of Litchfield, New Haven, and Hartford counties grow in population over that period of time there will be increased usage of area roads and highways (including Rte. 8 north of WTBY). If re-establishing regular passenger service over that portion of the line north of New Milford/Kent isn't viable due to the territory served then Torrington could as it's further east from the Berkshire -and therefore the Harlem- and is west enough from the Hartford Line that there aren't any duplicate routes. And if commuter rail does indeed come to the "Upper Naugy" that puts the RMNE in an awkward position of running short tourist trains on a line that has multiple commuter runs per day up and down the entire length.

And if the RMNE (or the Danbury Railroad Museum) were to move to the Berkshire Line in Litchfield Co. not only would they have more running room for longer excursions, etc. but they could even run a seasonal connecting shuttle train to/from MNR @ New Milford to however far up the line they see fit. Doesn't even have to be more than 2 or so coaches (perhaps they could get a hold of a pair of those ex-NJT cars for a song if they didn't want to use any of the museum equipment) it would just have to be timed with 1 Friday arriving and 1 Sunday departing train, etc.

One way or another it's a win-win for either the RMNE, DRM, or even an expanded BSRM (unless they're for some reason restricted to operate only within MA) to set up shop on the Berkshire Line in CT.

Upper Naugy is never going to be a plausible commuter rail line. Torrington is split too evenly between north/south commutes and Hartford-oriented east/west commutes for that to be a smart idea. Hartford is far and away the more difficult commute for them and the one that needs commuter rail worse...the current express bus service is very limited and gets clogged in traffic on US 44. But the Naugy just isn't operationally set up to ever support a Hartford commute with a unidirectional junction requiring a reverse at Waterbury station. And CT 8 is nearly empty north of Waterbury, so their need for a one-seat vs. driving 70 MPH to Waterbury station is negligible. Instituting Hartford-Waterbury commuter rail, a better Waterbury Branch schedule, and a CT Transit express bus from Torrington to Waterbury station gives the Naugy corridor better overall transit than they'd get if they had their own train. They need the frequencies south AND east in equal proportion, and there's no way to way to achieve all that criteria at maximum convenience without boarding a train at Waterbury-proper. Even a dinky on the Naugy would be too much slower than wide-open Route 8. The bus will beat it at any train speed.

As for excursions, Naugy already does have a working relationship with DRM. That's the most likely place you will see a working DRM engine in-service, since DRM doesn't have any native capacity to run its own excursions. The museums and excursion operators are all friendly with each other like that. And they have freight partners who'll shuttle equipment. P&W reaches both DRM and Valley RR, Metro North reaches DRM and Naugy (with one phone call to the PAS dispatcher for Naugy to run on a half-mile of Highland trackage to fetch in Waterbury). Bershire Scenic is the only one that currently has no path to the outside world that doesn't require haulage on HRCC, since its territorial rights are a few miles shy of Pittsfield and the CSX interchange.

[Jeff Smith]

Most definitely there is excursion service upside on the whole corridor. You've got BSRM anchoring the Massachusetts end and DRM's awesome collection of rolling stock anchoring the south end. All it really takes is enough safety improvements for trains not to fall off the tracks (i.e. not the $150M price tag for 'good' Class 1 track at full state-of-repair, but the dozen-$M bailout for 'tolerable-enough' track) and a little funding shot in the arm to the museums for there to be some really interesting tourism possibilities across the whole corridor. Naugy, Valley Line type stuff. That wouldn't take very much in a post-HRCC world to get going. I mean...the states are pretty much going to be stuck with the maint bailout bill regardless, as that's the necessary price of corridor preservation in Housy's wake. There is no doubt both of them will be looking at the tourism/excursion angle and the nonprofits to help justify some of that bailout in addition to doling out freight trackage rights to a creative- and trustworthy-enough skunkworks outfit. The tourism angle is the pot-sweetener to the local Chambers of Commerce to get them behind a new freight carrier.

I really do like DRM; they have a great collection. It's a shame the only thing that actually runs (as far as I recall) is the one Budd RDC. MNRR obviously wouldn't want tourist trains on an operational branch south of there. That leaves the Berkshire and the Maybrook. And if New Milford service happens, that basically just leaves the Maybrook. And this needs CTDOT ownership. I'd love to see them borrow expertise from BSRM, RMNE, and the local retired populace (cough Jaap cough) for operational knowledge and get something going.

[Jeff Smith]

HRRC would love this... from the GCT FB page. Not going to happen, not for them.

[DutchRailnut]

yes RDC is operational, but would need about $200 000 or more in work to make it FRA compliant,trucks need overhaul including replacement of all rubber parts, brakes need total overhaul including total rebuild of the 8 brake cylinders , the brake valves need rebuilding in cab and under car a new slip slide system would need to be designed as rollocrons no longer have working parts.
and no matter what, to operate it you would need a Metro North crew as labor agreements will not allow for others to operate passenger service on Metro North tracks.
no way DRM could afford Engineer and Conductor at contract rate with only 70 or so people per trip.