• Farewell to PCC's on the Mattapan High-Speed Line?

  • Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.
Discussion relating to commuter rail, light rail, and subway operations of the MBTA.

Moderators: sery2831, CRail

  by octr202
 
SbooX wrote:
octr202 wrote: Of course, silly me says they should just extend the Red Line heavy rail to Mattapan on the surface -- grade crossings and all. After all, seems to work ok in Chicago, they even put new third rail in over grade crossings in 2004:

http://www.chicago-l.org/tour/images/20 ... isco02.jpg

Somehow, though, I see the that idea being met with just a little skepticism here.
FOR REAL?!?! Damn that picture is scary! Please keep that far away from here. Is that a commuter rail line? Or the real El trains?
Ha! That was my thinking the first time I heard of such a thing, too. When I was last in Chicago, I went out of my way to ride the Ravenswood (Brown Line, where that photo was taken at Francisco Station) and the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line) just to see a real live grade crossing on a subway/rapid transit line. Out there there are numerous third rail L-highway grade crossings, on the Brown and Douglas Branch of the Blue Line that date from the original days of the lines. However, the Yellow Line was converted to third rail (from catenary) in 2004, complete with new crossings with cattle guards and fencing.

I suspect that proposing such a solution for the Red Line to Mattapan would just get no where here, since while Chicagoans have grown up with such installations, this area would never allow it -- just not used to it.

Also, I don't know whether there would be any need to design Red Line cars with more crash protection for operation over a grade crossing. Not likely, but interesting to ponder.

  by octr202
 
Tertullian wrote:PCCs are efficient and sufficient for the Mattapan line. I believe they preserve an important part of the MTA/MBTA joint history. It would be shameful to take them out of service after a laudable restoration of the fleet in the past few years. I wish the T would equip the line with a better snow plow instead of running shuttle buses along the route in bad weather. Buses-- not the way of the future!
Don't take us the wrong way -- I think all of us here want to see the PCCs stay, and so does the T, for now, as they put all that money into them. We're just realizing that they won't last forever, and also have some shortcomings when compared to more modern equipment.

The way the T runs the wheels off equipment, and then some, before its replaced, they'll be here for a while, even if the line does have a shut down. There were some (maybe a lot) in Cambridge that thought that the Lechmere end of the Green Line was being shut down as an attempt to close it permanantly -- we all know how that's turned out. :wink:

It's sad though when rail transit can't get through the snow -- esp. considering how the T's buses (well, 60-foot variety at least) do in the snow too. :(
  by octr202
 
Just had another thought as I was typing stuff in this thread. In the future, when its time to finally equip the Mattapan Line with LRV (in the generic sense, not Boeing LRV's), is it possible for a Green Line LRV to pass through the clearance dimensions of the Red Line? If so, perhaps modified Green Line trolleys of a future order could be built that could couple to Red Line cars or work equipment. Thus, with the addition of a track connection at Ashmont, after-hours shop moves could be made, with Red Line work motors towing the LRVs to Cabot for work. If it possible, might be a lot cheaper than having to build a new shop facility at Mattapan, or truck the cars to Riverside for heavy work.

  by typesix
 
The PCCs used to be towed to Harvard for heavy repair work years ago. One of the BSRA books has a picture of an all electric being towed behind a pair of 01400s.

  by octr202
 
typesix wrote:The PCCs used to be towed to Harvard for heavy repair work years ago. One of the BSRA books has a picture of an all electric being towed behind a pair of 01400s.
Somehow I had a hunch I wasn't reinventing the wheel here. :wink:

  by Tertullian
 
octr202 wrote:It's sad though when rail transit can't get through the snow -- esp. considering how the T's buses (well, 60-foot variety at least) do in the snow too. :(
This brings up an interesting point, possibly deserving its own thread. What use, if any, does the T have of the old (Type-5?) snow plow in Mattapan Yard? If memory serves me right, it entered service around 1904. Maybe they could fix that up and put it to work, if it isn't still in service.

  by Robert Paniagua
 
FOR REAL?!?! Damn that picture is scary! Please keep that far away from here. Is that a commuter rail line? Or the real El trains?

I know, I've also been there myself, on the Number 5 train (Ravenswood Brown Route) which mocks the Mattapan Line with those grade crossings, and they do look scary unlike here. And yes, it also looks like an MBCR Commuter Rail station, but it's an EL stop. Once upon a time, that line in the photo used to have catenary, similar to Metro-North's New Haven Line, but I doubt the MBTA will ever keep the catenary on Mattapan if the Rapid Transit were extended.

  by octr202
 
Tertullian wrote:
octr202 wrote:It's sad though when rail transit can't get through the snow -- esp. considering how the T's buses (well, 60-foot variety at least) do in the snow too. :(
This brings up an interesting point, possibly deserving its own thread. What use, if any, does the T have of the old (Type-5?) snow plow in Mattapan Yard? If memory serves me right, it entered service around 1904. Maybe they could fix that up and put it to work, if it isn't still in service.
I've always wondered whether a PCC car could push one of the "lead sleds" they have as snowplows on the Green Line (not that they get much use there), or, why they don't just run a car back and forth overnight to keep the line clear -- that's what they do on other lines. I'm assuming they still pay the trolley operators even when the line is shut down -- this isn't SEPTA where trolley operators are bus drivers, and you could use the same personnel. Got me...

  by octr202
 
Robert Paniagua wrote:FOR REAL?!?! Damn that picture is scary! Please keep that far away from here. Is that a commuter rail line? Or the real El trains?

I know, I've also been there myself, on the Number 5 train (Ravenswood Brown Route) which mocks the Mattapan Line with those grade crossings, and they do look scary unlike here. And yes, it also looks like an MBCR Commuter Rail station, but it's an EL stop. Once upon a time, that line in the photo used to have catenary, similar to Metro-North's New Haven Line, but I doubt the MBTA will ever keep the catenary on Mattapan if the Rapid Transit were extended.
Now, why I didn't link this photo the first time, I don't know. Illustrates better.

We all have to keep in mind that the Blue Line communities were reluctant to simply have ground level third rail on that extension, so yes, I know that Mattapan would never happen this way. I guess its just me venting on what's just not possible here.

In short, we're stuck with the trolley line -- which is great for us railfans, but will no doubt become yet another challenge and potential bustitution when the PCCs finally reach the end of their second or third lives.

  by RailBus63
 
octr202 wrote:In short, we're stuck with the trolley line -- which is great for us railfans, but will no doubt become yet another challenge and potential bustitution when the PCCs finally reach the end of their second or third lives.
I really don't believe the line will be in danger in the future. I think the Type 7's are well-regarded by the MBTA and are reliable enough that the T will simply take the best 10 or 12 cars and move them over when they aren't needed for the Green Line anymore. An upgraded shop building and a new substation is all that's really needed to support those cars, and shouldn't be that difficult to achieve with the right political support.

Jim

  by typesix
 
The snowplow is a Type 3. The PCCs don't do well in heavy snow as the T tried to do last winter in keeping the line open. Too much snow got into the electrical gear and disabled the cars, therefore the new policy of busing for heavy snow and using non-rail snow clearing equipment. I also would like to see if a PCC could push one of the lead sleds.

  by octr202
 
typesix wrote:The snowplow is a Type 3. The PCCs don't do well in heavy snow as the T tried to do last winter in keeping the line open. Too much snow got into the electrical gear and disabled the cars, therefore the new policy of busing for heavy snow and using non-rail snow clearing equipment. I also would like to see if a PCC could push one of the lead sleds.
Ahh -- okay, I kind of forgot that aspect of it.

As I suspected though, its expensive, operations wise, for the T to bustitute a normally rail operation (i.e., drivers being paid OT, etc.). I didn't think they'd do it unless they had a good reason *well, valid reason, I wouldn't call this good).
  by F-line to Dudley via Park
 
octr202 wrote:Just had another thought as I was typing stuff in this thread. In the future, when its time to finally equip the Mattapan Line with LRV (in the generic sense, not Boeing LRV's), is it possible for a Green Line LRV to pass through the clearance dimensions of the Red Line? If so, perhaps modified Green Line trolleys of a future order could be built that could couple to Red Line cars or work equipment. Thus, with the addition of a track connection at Ashmont, after-hours shop moves could be made, with Red Line work motors towing the LRVs to Cabot for work. If it possible, might be a lot cheaper than having to build a new shop facility at Mattapan, or truck the cars to Riverside for heavy work.
They used to do just that. Before Cabot opened in the 1960's, the Eliot Shops at Harvard were the primary shop for the Red Line cars. Eliot also served as the primary shop for the Blue Line before Orient Heights yard opened with the 1952 rapid transit expansion...those cars were sent up through the Cambridge St. portal past Bowdoin and towed by work equipment up the Longfellow Bridge on trolley tracks before switching over onto the current Red Line tracks on the Cambridge side of the river to run on their own power up to the yard and shops (moves were made nightly because yard storage in the Bowdoin-Maverick tunnel was so tight). Eliot also served as a trolley maintenance facility for the Harvard based routes, and because of that capability it also serviced the Mattapan PCC's, which were coupled in Codman yard to the back of a rapid transit car and towed to Eliot. Since the yard trackage was connected to the trolley trackage in Harvard Square, and the Harvard Square trolley trackage was connected to Watertown Carhouse and the A-line trackage via the modern TT 71 route...it was possible to move a PCC directly from Mattapan to Lechmere and all Green Line points beyond in one non-revenue move. Before some of the Mattapan feeder lines were bustituted in the 1950's, there was also a line down Blue Hill Ave. that connected through various criscrossing routes and non-revenue trackage to Arborway carhouse...so it was possible to make a COMPLETE CIRCUIT from Mattapan to Harvard to Watertown to Arborway (via Park St. loop, Brattle Loop, North Station loop, or Lechmere) to Mattapan again in a single one-seat non-revenue ride (with a long hitch in the middle on the back of a rapid transit car).


Eliot closed after Cabot opened, but the PCC's still went up there and used the Watertown connection for servicing even after the Harvard trolley lines were bustituted. Some maintenance might've also been done in the yard. The trolley tracks stayed in the street for years afterwards--at least into the early 1970's--and of course the trolley wires are still active to this day because of the TT's. They were probably used sparingly by the late-60's, but it was still possible to pass PCC's from the Green Line to Mattapan for a few years after the Harvard lines went away because of that track connection. Cabot doesn't have the lifts to pick up a PCC car...it's strictly a rapid transit shop. Trucking to Riverside is still the most cost-effective option for maintenance. The fleet just isn't big enough to make installing lifts in Codman or Cabot worthwhile. But if the T wants a secure place to store the PCC fleet during the Mattapan shutdown there's plenty of yard space in Cabot if Codman is too cramped. It may be possible to actually see those things get towed around the Red Line again by one of the 01400's just like in the old days.


As far as clearances go, all Green/Blue/Orange cars can technically run (if they have 3rd rail shoes) or get pulled through the Red Line tunnel (since all equipment can couple together) because that line was built to a more modern standard. Blue cars used to actually go on their own power up the Cambridge tunnel to Eliot for servicing, which means the similar Orange cars could've done the same if there were any connection. Green Line trolleys can fit the clearances on all the rapid transit lines because of trolley track connections to all lines in the olden days...Blue of course used to be a trolley line until the East Boston tunnel went heavy rail in '24 and retained the Bowdoin-to-Longfellow trolley trackage connector until '52...Red still has its active M-line connection through Codman and used to have its Harvard-to-trolley connection that fed to Watertown and the modern Green Line...and right up until '75 Orange used have a short incline from the El in old Sullivan Square yard to the trolley tracks at street level to move work equipment around for Everett Shops (which used to service PCC's in addition to rapid transit cars and buses). Before the Sullivan trolley lines were taken out of service and severed by I-93 construction it was technically possible to get a trolley from Lechmere to Sullivan and onto the same yard tracks as the OL cars in one set of non-revenue moves (and thus technically possible to pass a trolley car in extremely roundabout fashion from Mattapan to EVERY single rapid transit line without ever leaving the rails or doing anything more exotic than coupling to a rapid transit car). Orange and Blue cars can both fit through the Green Line tunnels...Blue because its tunnels used to be trolley tunnels, and Orange because the Els used to run through the Tremont St. tunnel before the Washington St. tunnel opened. I think Orange and Blue can't clear platforms on one or the other ecause of height differences, but the cars can navigate the tunnel clearances OK. Only the Red Line cars can't get towed through any other line's tunnels without getting stuck...actually, were it not for the platforms Red cars could probably handle the whole Haymarket-North and Southwest Corridor-to-Chinatown Orange Line because of the modern construction. It's just the small stretch of original tunnel and the State St. "dip" that would do them in.

  by trolleyguy
 
typesix wrote:The snowplow is a Type 3. The PCCs don't do well in heavy snow as the T tried to do last winter in keeping the line open. Too much snow got into the electrical gear and disabled the cars, therefore the new policy of busing for heavy snow and using non-rail snow clearing equipment. I also would like to see if a PCC could push one of the lead sleds.
I would like to comment about the Type 3 snowplow at Mattapan. Today that car is probably no longer in good running condition, if it can operate at all. Even more to the point, there are probably no crews left on the "T" who know how to run that car.

Back when the Type 3 streetcar snowplows were in good working order and there were crews who knew how to operate them, these plows did an excellent job of clearing away all but the heaviest and wettest snow, especially on private right-of-way routes like the Mattapan-Ashmont High-Speed Line.

The Type 3s were very heavy and, with four sizeable traction motors mounted in trucks with 33" diameter wheels (much taller than the 26" diameter wheels of the PCCs and far less prone to being bogged down by deep snow), quite powerful. They were equipped with wing plows as well as under-floor scraper blades which broke up compacted snow on street-running stretches of track. The wing plows were deployed at stations where they were used to clear snow off the platforms. Out on open track they could be extended quite far beyond the sides of the car to push already-plowed snow even farther away from the center line of the track.

I once had the privilege of riding a Type 3 snow plow with an experienced crew, which consisted of a motorman and two assistants stationed in the middle of the car. It was quite an experience to watch these men at work. The two assistants at the center of the car operated the wing plows on both sides. The motorman would call out to them to retract the wing plows whenever the car passed by obstacles close to the track. An air compressor mounted on the floor near the middle of the car constantly pounded away as it supplied air to the pneumatically-operated mechanisms controlling the wing plows. It was an experience to watch these marvels of ingenious early-twentieth-century mechanical craftsmanship at work

It took skillful cooperation amongst all three crew members to operate the Type 3 snowplows efficiently. Even though it might be bitterly cold and windy outside, inside the Type 3s it was toasty warm from the the heat given off by the resistance grids in the traction motor circuits. On passenger streetcars these resistance grids were always mounted beneath the floor, but on the Type 3s, with so much underfloor space taken up by the plow mechanisms, the traction motor grids had to be placed inside the car.

For years the Boston Elevated Railway (which converted the Type 3 streetcars into snow plows in the first place and designed the plow mechanisms), later the MTA, and finallly the MBTA, all used them effectively and well. These plows saw plenty of duty on the Riverside Line, the Arborway and Watertown lines, as well as on Commonwealth Avenue and Beacon Street.

The PCCs were never expected to have to push their way through heavy snow, and it was rare that snow got so deep or heavy that service had to be interrupted or replaced by buses.

Using PCCs to push rail-mounted "sleds" (plows mounted on a heavily-weighted-down sled-like mechanism) wouldn't hold a candle to what the Type 3s could do.

It is a sad commentary on how far things have declined since the days when the transit system's management didn't hesitate to train and deploy skilled snow plow crews who really knew how to operate the Type 3s. Usually these men were old-timers with the most experience and seniority, and were paid good overtime wages for their work. These crews were on call and in stand-by mode whenever a major snowstorm threatened.

The T needs modern-day counterparts of the Type 3s and people who know how to operate them.

  by typesix
 
Yes, if another Blizzard of 78 ever comes, the lead sleds wouldn't be much good compared to the T3 plows. As noted, most of the Green line operators today or even most of the carhouse personnel have little or no experience running "conventional" streetcars like the T3 and T5.