Okay, while not exactly the "Moynahan station" related, its close, and considering the ARC thread was locked.......this seems like the next best place.
Interesting article today in the Asbury Park Press about the "new" Penn Station/34th St. station. Some concerns are brought up about an operating plan, but especially the depth of the station.
http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/articl ... /-1/NEWS10
Depth of rail tunnel's new station questioned
Transit planners says it's the norm
By Larry Higgs • STAFF WRITER • December 23, 2007
NJ Transit officials are sticking to a projected date in 2009 to start construction of the massive Hudson River tunnel and a six-track station deep under 34th Street in Manhattan, a project officials say is being designed to meet all safety standards.
"Building it in 2009, that's my current estimate," said Arthur Silber, NJ Transit's chief engineer on the TransHudson Express Tunnel project.
The eight-year construction project is estimated to cost $11.5 billion for the tunnel, the station and other allied projects.
A coalition of transit advocates has questioned the safety and convenience of the deep station, a design Silber said has been developed in conjunction with the New York City Police and Fire departments.
"The National Fire Protection Act requires us to get people to a safe area in four minutes or less," Silber said.
In the case of the proposed station, which would be 170 feet below 34th Street, the safe area is defined as the station mezzanine, where there are no trains, he said.
As many as two trainloads of passengers, or 3,200 people, can be evacuated to the station's main mezzanine in four minutes, Silber said. In addition, the 34th Street station would have special entrances reserved for use by police, firefighters and emergency medical services, he said. That means first responders descending to fight a fire won't be delayed by people leaving the station, he said.
But transportation advocates have questions about the safety and accessibility of a deep station, which they contend is the equivalent of a 20-story building.
"We don't believe that standard is comprehensive enough to make riders safe," said David Peter Alan, president of the Lackawanna Commuter Coalition and part of a bi-state alliance questioning the project. "What if a fire breaks out on the mezzanine? Do you feel safe with a fire between you and the street?"
Alan cited a 2006 plan by NJ Transit for a station 150 feet below 34th Street, which estimated it would take six minutes for passengers to evacuate from the platform to street level.
"Truly, you are looking at seven minutes," he said. "This is four times as deep as Penn Station (New York)."
Designs for the massive project were changed to a deep tunnel and station to avoid several obstacles, such as a bulkhead at the Hudson River, a waterfront park, the West Side Highway and the proposed extension of the No. 7 line subway from Times Square to the Javits Center, said Alan M. Weinberg, director of real estate and public affairs for the TransHudson Express Tunnel project.
The tunnel will be drilled through bedrock, unlike the existing Hudson River tunnels, which are very shallow.
Engineers took test borings to determine the geological makeup of the right-of-way for the proposed tunnel, which led to the decision to locate it deeper in bedrock.
The proposed 34th Street station would connect to the existing Penn Station and to the Nos. 1, 2 and 3 subways at Seventh Avenue and the B, D, V, F, N, R, Q and W subway lines and PATH trains at Sixth Avenue. NJ Transit passengers would be able to access those lines through underground passageways, Silber said.
Deep stations and tunnels are the norm for modern transit construction in built-up urban areas, Weinberg said.
The Long Island Railroad's East side access project, which will allow those trains to go to Grand Central Terminal, is about the same depth, and the proposed extension of the No. 7 subway line west of Times Square will be about 150 feet deep. And a station on NJ Transit's Hudson Bergen light rail system is 160 feet beneath the Palisades, Silber said.
Washington's Metro subway system has two stations that are 200 or more feet underground.
"It's not uncommon. This is the norm," Silber said.
Silber said NJ Transit designers have learned from other existing deep stations and have hired engineers and designers who have worked on other projects from around the world. The proposed 34th Street station will have elevators big enough to accommodate several wheelchairs or baby strollers, Silber said.
Transferring to the subway or to Penn Station will still require riders to ascend about 100 feet, Alan said.
"You're still talking a long travel time (upward) . . . between the cavern and Penn Station and connecting to the Long Island Railroad or other NJ Transit trains," he said. "There is no way to sugar-coat this to make it palatable to a reasonable rider."
Still to be completed is an operating plan for the new station. That plan will determine which trains would go to the existing Penn Station and which would go to the proposed 34th Street station, Silber said.
"Trains will pull in, consistently, to the same station," Silber said. "It is important to have a consistent operating plan, so when you leave work, you know where to go."
But Alan contends the North Jersey Coast Line trains could be split between the two stations. Trains pulled by electric locomotives and originating in Long Branch would continue to use Penn Station, while those starting from Bay Head and powered by dual-mode diesel locomotives would terminate at the proposed 34th Street station.
The bi-state coalition, which includes members of the New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers and the Empire State Rail Passenger Alliance, wants NJ Transit to revert to an earlier plan, which proposed a new station under the existing Penn Station and extended tracks to Grand Central Terminal to provide access to the East Side of Manhattan.
Silber said locating a station under Penn Station isn't possible because the ground is unsuitable. Test boring revealed the existing Penn Station sits over what was once a river bed.
The plan calls for rails from the upper platform of the 34th Street station to be extended as far as Fifth Avenue, in case a decision is made to connect to Grand Central in the future, he said.
NJ Transit officials said they've met with transportation advocates about the project, said Penny Bassett-Hackett, NJ Transit spokeswoman.
"A goal over the eight years of construction is that existing customers face little or no delay," Silber said.
In 2008, the remaining regulatory impact statments are expected to be filed with the Federal Transit Administration. If that agency gives the go-ahead, federal funding can be allocated for the project.
Already, a total of $4.5 billion is committed by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, the state of New Jersey and NJ Transit. Officials are hoping for the remaining funds to meet the $7 billion construction cost to be granted by the FTA.
"In the past, with FTA (funded) projects, we have come in on budget and on time," Bassett-Hackett said. "Our track record is great."
The part of the article that I don't understand is if NYP was built on a former riverbed, how is the station blasted out of bed rock? Its quite visible along track 1 and track 21? Unless they mean directly under the station, but even then, is the rock that much different 150 feet below the surface at 33rd and 7th/8th (Under Penn Station) as opposed to under 34th and 7th????????
All and all, i think it was a good article, Larry Higgs seems to do his research....
