Amtrak Downeaster Discussion Thread

[electricron]

When you require public funds for subsidies to run a train service, it must first satisfy the demands of local politicians over and beyond the needs of the train and it’s ability to earn profits. Every town and city along the Downeaster’s route within Maine will eventually get a station if it wants one and ponies up the cash for a train station.

Even Amtrak isn’t immune to local politics. In the last few years, the Texas Eagle got a brand new station location that Amtrak didn’t spend a penny on south of St. Louis.

[swist]

Yes please no more vacation destination stops. I've ridden the DE from end to end twice a week for the last 4 years and the total number of people that get on/off at Old Orchard and Freeport is somewhere between zero and a handful.

[Cosakita18]

In my eyes, the DE needs to focus on its core product, which is Portland-Boston intercity service. Hell, if I had my way, then the DE would run some services as "express" Have 2 or 3 peak-time trains make limited calls in Saco, Wells and Exeter. and the other 2-3 would be local services.

[chrsjrcj]

Less than half of Downeaster riders travel end to end. While it does make up a significant portion of riders, I suspect an express service would be just as unsuccessful as the Acela Express non-stop trial trains.

https://www.railpassengers.org/site/ass ... 3476/9.pdf

[ExCon90]

And there are other examples: The nonstop NYP-WAS metroliner about 1969 was soon discontinued because there weren't enough through passengers to fill the train; a Surfliner between LA and San Diego soon after the startup that skipped most intermediate stops didn't fill the seats either. Offhand I can't think of a nonstop train in the US that survived. (Afterthought: Chicago-Milwaukee?)

[Arborwayfan]

Here is an odd thing to think about: A new stop can be a success for the town that it is in even if not too many people use the stop. It is possible that having a station could attract new residents who do not actually use the train much, or tourists who usually drive in but sometimes come by train. Having a train station is partly a way to get on another map. I wonder if any of the folks in Kennebunk are thinking of it that way.

I have no opinion about the Kennebunk stop. I cannot picture Kennebunk or its station. I can picture the station at Old Orchard Beach, which is such a perfect place for a vacation station that it would, in my opinion, be crazy not to stop there even though the DE stops are quite close together: a stop right behind the beach in a town with amusements and whatnot that you can do without a car, on a stretch of track where the train probably would not be going 79 mph otherwise.

[Dick H]

Over the years, there are comments now and then about New Hampshire not financially supporting the service/
That is correct as far as the State of NH is concerned. However, the City of Dover, the University of New Hampshire
and the town of Exeter paid the local share of the original federal grants for the construction of the platforms and
the station in Dover and the rehab and expansion of the station in Durham. Dover and UNH foot the bill for electricity,
heating and cooling, cleaning the stations, removing the snow and the monthly charges for the Quik-trak machine.
UNH has plans to expand the platform and Exeter owns the former B&M station and has plans to renovate it into a
modern station building. The Dover station needs a new roof and a solar panel project is under consideration in
conjunction with the roof replacement. These costs are being paid by local New Hampshire property taxpayers.

[smsullivan11]

Yes, just like many other towns in MA and ME, but you know what is meant is the State of NH not contributing anything on the State level for years while Maine foots a lot of the bill. It's all about the politics sadly in NH that means heavy anti rail.

[electricron]

Why should New Hampshire help subsidize the Downeaster trains? Let's get real, if New Hampshire was to help subsidize an Amtrak train into Boston, that train would have to be routed through Manchester - it's largest city. Don't look surprised, but a very important fact to consider, the Downeaster trains are not routed through Manchester.

Other states subsidizing Amtrak trains do so for trains routing through their largest cities/metros. Washington, Oregon. California, Colorado, Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Maine subsidizes Amtrak trains to their largest cities/metros. Some states also subsidizes other trains, but there isn't one state that subsidizes Amtrak trains that doesn't do so for their largest city/metro. And yes, I'm including Texas in that list because the DFW metro is just barely larger than the Houston metro. To add, if the Heartland Flyer didn't go to DFW metro, Texas wouldn't be helping to subsidize it.

[Arborwayfan]

Should the Downeaster skip the stations in New Hampshire to spite the General Court and the other parts of the state? Isn't stopping in a college town good for ridership? If the stations are provided free and the towns add their goodwill to negotiations with PanAm and the passengers pay for their tickets, what good would it do leave all that on the table (or the platform)? I notice that the fares to-from the NH stops rose by a larger amount than the other fares a year or two ago, which partly stands in for a state subsidy.
So what do the stations cost Maine? Are Exeter folks going to Boston keeping Mainers off the train, or keeping Boston folks from going to Maine? Does no one from NH ride up into Maine and spend money there?

Also, why do we pick on NH but not Mass? Basically Maine and the Feds pay for a train that takes a lot of people from Maine and NH into Boston, right? Anyone know what fraction of the riders go TO Maine, as opposed to living in Maine and going the other way? Anyone know how many people live in Maine and work in Mass or NH specifically because the Downeaster makes it easier or more pleasant? All these questions matter.

[Rockingham Racer]

Ron, the NH legislature just rejected--for the second time, IINM--a study to be done on commuter rail serving Manchester. And no one is really surprised. So, getting real, they really don't even care about rail serving the Queen City. It's not a unanimous feeling, but it's the dominant one.

As to not stopping at all in New Hampshire, that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. In spite of no state support, the people in southeastern New Hampshire contribute a significant amount of fare revenue to the operation, apparently. And good for them!

Now, when's the 6th roundtrip going to start?!

[Cowford]

Anyone know what fraction of the riders go TO Maine, as opposed to living in Maine and going the other way?

NNEPRA claims that over 100,000 non-Mainers rider the train to Maine annually. This is an absurd claim (other published NNEPRA stats are implicitly contradictory), but no-one has ever challenged them on it. A few other points:

NNEPRA needs NH ridership A LOT more than NH riders need NNEPRA. For one thing, many EXE folks can just as easily drive to Newburyport (with five rush hr departure options vs one with NNEPRA).

Massachusetts does subsidize NNEPRA. MBTA trackage and station usage fees mysteriously disappeared as a line item in 2012. Best I can figure it was a quid pro quo for securing federal funding of the Merrimack Bridge.

If Kennebunk residents don't use the train because they have to drive 10 mins to the station, they're not going to use it if their drive is 5 mins to the station.

[MEC407]

It wants to be a service that does not lose a lot of money. That apparently includes serving the cities of Exeter, Durham and Dover in New Hampshire, which doesn't contribute a dime to support the service.

The passengers from Exeter, Durham, and Dover contribute millions of dimes in farebox revenue, which the service would lose if they didn't stop in those three communities. Farebox recovery would take a nosedive.

[Rockingham Racer]

Yes, I made that point indirectly a few posts up thread. Don't get me wrong. I'm quite glad to see the three cities getting passenger rail service. It's just too bad that the state legislature, for some reason, seems to be afraid of embracing it.

[electricron]

Ron, the NH legislature just rejected--for the second time, IINM--a study to be done on commuter rail serving Manchester. And no one is really surprised. So, getting real, they really don't even care about rail serving the Queen City. It's not a unanimous feeling, but it's the dominant one.

As to not stopping at all in New Hampshire, that would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. In spite of no state support, the people in southeastern New Hampshire contribute a significant amount of fare revenue to the operation, apparently. And good for them!

Now, when's the 6th roundtrip going to start?!

Whether New Hampshire ever subsidizes an Amtrak train or not, I would like to remind you that it’s legislature did debate subsidizing a potential future train to Manchester, not an existing train to Portland. Which follows very closely to what I was trying to point out in my earlier response. States are more interested improving transportation modes for more of their own citizen taxpayers than they are for other states. Don’t expect the New Hampshire legislature to subsidize a train that will never reach Manchester.