WRECK OF THE REMOTES, STRIKES AGAIN

This is doubtless a stupid question, but if the engineer protects the engine from running forward into something, what protects the rear of the train from running backwards into something?

The switchman there Russ.

I've done RCL, havent saw anything new, that didnt happen before the remotes showed up. Blind shoves gone bad, corner the crap out of a goat, ran threw switches, cars tipping over, out of control joints, by passed drawbars, shifted loads, jumping D-rails, personal injuries. Remotes havent re-invented human caused incidents/derailments. Its alot to get used to, doing two jobs at the same time.

Still miss my 2nd shift yard hog job (and my RCL job), had alot of fun out there kicking cars around.

I think part of the difficulty in answering these questions so non-railroaders can follow is also part of the problem with the devices. I'll state I have not used one but I am in the railroad industry.

The problem is in the difference between THEORY and ACTUAL USE. In theory, if there is only one person on the crew they would be handling relatively small cuts, in limited areas. Think of a string of hoppers being loaded with stone. The one guy with the remote moves the train ahead one car, and when that car is loaded repeats. Maybe he sets over a cut of loads to another track. Fine - no problem. The problem comes with actual use when some railroad wants to save money and gives the one guy a lot of cars to switch out in a busy yard. Box or not, you can't be everywhere at once. Either the guy wears himself out walking from one end to the other over and over so he can protect movement, throw switches etc, or else he takes shortcuts which sooner or later have predictable results.

The same with two guys. In theory if you have two guys with pitch-and-catch it should work OK with one guy toward one end and the other at the other end of the move. But if Joe rides 50 cars into a track to protect the end, then Tom makes a cut on 15 cars, either Tom has to walk 15 cars to the engine to protect the move out or trust that whatever zone protection they have has held up OK and nobody took the iron away or moved in on the track.

In a perfect world where nobody makes mistakes and everything works as it should remotes would be fine. But that's not reality. If used in limited applications like spreading ballast etc they are OK but when the powers that be keep adding on to what they expect crews to do, and use the remote in place of another human to save money, it appears they actually cost more in terms of wrecks and incidents.

I have talked to guys who use them and are OK with them, and others who think they are dangerous and no good. Funny thing is those who don't mind them are guys who use them as they were intended, for handling a few cars in simple situations. The ones who hate them are guys who are expected to do too much with them in the name of taking a man out of the seat.

Also it's interesting to hear of guys running via the remote but in the cab - I was told that was a big no-no and remotes were NOT to be used in the cab of the loco. Rules and situations vary from place to place.

Aji-tater wrote: But if Joe rides 50 cars into a track to protect the end, then Tom makes a cut on 15 cars, either Tom has to walk 15 cars to the engine to protect the move out or trust that whatever zone protection they have has held up OK and nobody took the iron away or moved in on the track.

Also it's interesting to hear of guys running via the remote but in the cab - I was told that was a big no-no and remotes were NOT to be used in the cab of the loco. Rules and situations vary from place to place.

Once you have took the goat up the lead/belt/drill made sure all the switches are lined properly, nothing is out to foul, you set your zone up, relieved of watching the point. Anything that happens after that isnt the RCO's fault, the switch Foreman is the only person who can allow anyone to enter, or use there lead. The RR puts out bulletins, signs along the tracks, along the roads, (Warning Remote Control Locomotives In Use) (Westend RCL Zone) Once you ok someone to enter your zone to make a move the switch crew's zone is down until they have visually saw that the lead is clear and that all switches have been returned, and the crew has reported cleared of there zone. Once that has been done, relieved of protecting the point again. Theres not anymore walking then there was when there was a hog, you dont let anyone in till your done kicking out your cut, or setting a rail, its quicker just to get it done then it would be to walk all the way up to the goat. Cant make it anymore safe then that right? Aint much different then guys working on the track under protection is it? Theres still hogheads blowing past red boards. As long as there people out there, theres gonna be human error.

There was a short time when the RCO's weren't allowed to used the belt pack while in the cab on the UP. I did anyways.

Dumping rock with remote is a joke, the speed control sensors on the goat freaks out, anything but smooth. Havent saw it being done since i did it, M of W wasnt impressed.

ENR3870 wrote:

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:Probably best not to answer, if you don't have a correct answer, ENR. You might believe that remotes are restricted to yard jobs only. And you might be wrong............

Golden-Arm, I work these beltpack jobs. I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt we have one person on the engine, or in a position to protect the point, and we never, NEVER take Beltpacks out on the road, they are restricted to yard jobs only. RCO probably varies from railroad to railroad but I was answering from my own personal experience.

Well, I am so happy that's your story to tell here. This was MY thread, about an incident, on MY railroad. You touted yourself to have the answers, and you were wrong. Nobody asked what was going on, on your railroad. I specifically addressed a situation, and job, that fit the criterion for the discussion. You attempted to make my facts into lies. Start your own thread, about your own experiences, and don't try to subtract, from mine. NOBODY is required to ride the engine of a remote job. I don't care how they do it, where you're at. SOMEBODY does take a road job, between cities, with a remote, by themselves, and alone. I don't care what you have done. Read ALL of the posts, in a topic, before bringing anything to the table, you wish to present as fact. And, if you claim it is a fact, you better be able to prove it. Regards

To Aji: the CSXT jobs in Queensgate, and Montgomery, use remotes, for hump work, at the first place, and switching at the second. The hump guy runs a remote, from the cab. Ditto, for the switchers. The BLE had an agreement, that stated, "if the remotes were run from the cab, the engineers seat, was not to be occupied, to make the move". Kinda like pouring salt, in our wounds, I guess. Needless to say, it didn't/doesn't stop wanna-be hoggers, from getting "their pretend on"...............

I've worked with the belt, here's why it's ineffective/dangerous:

Training: You get a week in class, watch some videos and MAYBE get a little OJT. We were allotted 2 full days to get out and run the box, both days the roundhouse couldn't spare the power. A class of 12 wound up splitting time working with an ancient SW1500 and 3 decrepit empty flats for a grand total of 4 hours. We were practicing turning the box on/off with a DEAD unit just so we'd know where the switches and handles were. Two days later I was in Seattle taking a remote local with 40 scrap metal loads through multiple form Bs. Never pulled any tonnage, never been on the radio, nothing. This is what passes for training on the largest RR in the world.

Bad equipment: Boxes constantly break down. The computers don't work well with the old equipment. I once put a motor in the "4" setting and literally counted to 18 before it started moving forward. Try spotting cars to industries with a lag time like that. Power is CONSTANTLY bad ordered, and we have one guy in our roundhouse that knows how to deal with the equipment. Not to mention the brake shoes that get burned through with guys "power braking" trying to control movements. The shoes are supposed to be changed out once a day, and sometimes once a shift. Think it happens like that? Try putting away 30 lumber loads with 2 goats (usually working against each other because the computer doesn't always like MU hookups) that are down to bare steel on the brake pads. Every kick means a sawed switch and it doubles your switch time. Of course you can bad order the brakes and have 2 managers up your ass, it's your choice. Sometimes the pullback protection devices ("pucks") malfunction if they are placed too close to other tracks with the same devices. Then you have to have someone up in the cab of the motor to manually override the pullback protection so you can grab a cut of cars. Not a bad gig sitting up there watching the point for ten hours, but it gets boring after a while. OR you can get the ever-popular "Comm Loss" which happens when you go under a bridge or something obstructs the satellite signal from the box to the motor. Many times you have to shut down and start all over again. This is only a small list, you also have inexplicable failures of brakes, throttle control, the "tilt" feature, etc.

How much of this happens with a real live person at the throttle?

FUNNY STORY: Someone mentioned earlier about making remotes better by throwing them in the trash. One of the guys here would come into the crew room at least once a week having problems with his box and be very pissed about it, throwing it in the garbage. Usually someone would retrieve it and put it in the cabinet. About a year ago, UP hired a Canadian Consulting company to audit our operations, including remotes. I had a chance to talk to one of the guys and he said the most puzzling thing was that there were ten missing boxes, they seemed to have just vanished. All I could think about was this guy tossing his box and wondered how many times nobody had bothered to pull it out of the trash.

Golden: Do you have any idea which UP job uses the box on the main line? The reason I ask is that the FRA told us that we weren't allowed to use the boxes on the main here in Portland. We have a transfer job between Brooklyn and Albina yards that gets out on the main for a couple of miles that used to be remote, but now it's conventional.

Hey, Steely, THAT sounds like the perfect place, to store those beltpacks.........

That is a pretty funny story dude.

Remotes are not dangerous at all.

For example they need to use dedicated leads where no one can touch that track without permission from the switch crew.

That being said, with dedicated leads ... the point never needs to be protected.

They just need to be used in the right area ... and switching is a whole crap of a lot easier without an engineman.

SteelWheels21 wrote:... he said the most puzzling thing was that there were ten missing boxes, they seemed to have just vanished. All I could think about was this guy tossing his box and wondered how many times nobody had bothered to pull it out of the trash.

WHAT A JERK!

Costing his company all that money.
Hope the company finds out and takes their value out of his paycheck.

Robert Gift wrote:

SteelWheels21 wrote:... he said the most puzzling thing was that there were ten missing boxes, they seemed to have just vanished. All I could think about was this guy tossing his box and wondered how many times nobody had bothered to pull it out of the trash.

WHAT A JERK!

Costing his company all that money.
Hope the company finds out and takes their value out of his paycheck.

Yeah, be sure to RUN right down to the yard office, and tell the Trainmaster on him...... I think I saw him take home some extra water bottles, in his grip, too. You might get a REWARD!!! I am starting to get a thought, on how old you might actually be, from your recent posts.......(try the TAMR forum)
Steely, the job that I am referring to, isn't a UP job. It's one of the jobs, where I am at, right now. The guy actually is trying to get the job moved to a night job, because the FRA has taken to following him across his run, almost every day. It seems they are waiting for "something" to happen, so they can rule out this type of operation, an outrageous concept, for a normally "pro-carrier" branch of Government. The job begins in the SP/UP yard, in Albany (OE Yard), and terminates down at Eugene, after switching his way, down the entire length of the line. The carrier even offered him a trainman, to work with him, but with a pay-cut, for the help. Guess which way this "brother" voted? (gotta be the most anti-union, union guy, I have seen, in a long time. kept another guy, from having a job!!!) I agree, remotes are not dangerous. Have a track, not accessible by ANY other trains, no crossings, a minimum of switches, during daylight hours, with a highly trained operator, and well maintained equipment, and it SHOULD be reasonably safe. Problem is, I can't think of a single place, where this might be. As soon as you add the ability of another train, to even accidentally enter the zone, there is no more safety, in using that form of operation. Maybe a mine, or rock plant, with a locking, split-rail derail,(one in each direction) located a sufficient distance, from any other operable tracks, might be fine. Those wouldn't be RAILROAD jobs, though, just industry switchers. Anything else, should be illegal. Again, this is just my thought, on THAT matter. Yours may vary widely.....

I thought remotes were dangerous before, then about a year and a half ago one ran into the side of my engine on the lead while I was doubling up my train. So I really don't like them now!

How is switching without an engineer(we're not enginemen) easier? You'd rather being hanging on the side of a boxcar wth a black box while coupling a track? I've done my fair share of work from the ground and would never want to give up having an engineer on the lead.

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:

Robert Gift wrote:

SteelWheels21 wrote:... he said the most puzzling thing was that there were ten missing boxes, they seemed to have just vanished. All I could think about was this guy tossing his box and wondered how many times nobody had bothered to pull it out of the trash.

WHAT A JERK!

Costing his company all that money.
Hope the company finds out and takes their value out of his paycheck.

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:Yeah, be sure to RUN right down to the yard office, and tell the Trainmaster on him...... I think I saw him take home some extra water bottles, in his grip, too. You might get a REWARD!!! I am starting to get a thought, on how old you might actually be, from your recent posts.......(try the TAMR forum)

Big difference between taking home cheap bottles of water, which will be USED, and needlessly TRASHING expensivelectronic equipment.
He should be reported and reimburse the company.
Idiots like him cause a company to require thextra complication and bother of checking out equipment.

What does age matter? I would say same if a pimply-faced teen-ager.
How much of his company's money did he wa$te?

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:As soon as you add the ability of another train, to even accidentally enter the zone, there is no more safety, in using that form of operation.

Well, then, it is the fault of THAT train crew.
But still surprised there is no video to reveal any potential problems.

GOLDEN-ARM wrote:Those wouldn't be RAILROAD jobs, though, just industry switchers. The carrier even offered him a trainman, to work with him, but with a pay-cut, for the help. Guess which way this "brother" voted? (gotta be the most anti-union, union guy, I have seen, in a long time. kept another guy, from having a job!!!)

Why hire another employee if you couldo it yourself?
I'd prefer the efficiency and extra pay. Wouldn't you?