Trolleys for Route 23

Accidentally? Dare I ask?

jfrey40535 wrote:PCC-II's have been in the tunnel (accidentally).

PCC's are banned from the Subway? But, I rode a PCC on a fan trip a couple of years ago... oh wait, was this before they got their roof-hump air conditioners?

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote:PCC-II's have been in the tunnel (accidentally).

PCC's are banned from the Subway? But, I rode a PCC on a fan trip a couple of years ago... oh wait, was this before they got their roof-hump air conditioners?

-otto-

That's right. They're worried about the close clearances at the S curve east of 15th Street Eastbound. There are other reasons, but that's just 1234 playing games.

Hopefully they can bring back the 23 as a trolley, with service from 11th and Bigler in South Philly to G'town and Rex in Chestnut Hill. It's been long overdue, IMO!!!

wanderer34 wrote:Hopefully they can bring back the 23 as a trolley, with service from 11th and Bigler in South Philly to G'town and Rex in Chestnut Hill. It's been long overdue, IMO!!!

you can already take the subway to germantown ave and transfer to the 23, cutting your trip time. lots of things are long overdue.

Suburban Station wrote:

wanderer34 wrote:Hopefully they can bring back the 23 as a trolley, with service from 11th and Bigler in South Philly to G'town and Rex in Chestnut Hill. It's been long overdue, IMO!!!

you can already take the subway to germantown ave and transfer to the 23, cutting your trip time. lots of things are long overdue.

I know that, but I never said anything about finding the fastest way to Chestnut Hill. Besides, the trolley was there first, anyways. It can also eventually help revitalize of North Philly and Germantown. Look what's happening along Girard Ave from Front St to 33rd St.

wanderer34 wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:

wanderer34 wrote:Hopefully they can bring back the 23 as a trolley, with service from 11th and Bigler in South Philly to G'town and Rex in Chestnut Hill. It's been long overdue, IMO!!!

you can already take the subway to germantown ave and transfer to the 23, cutting your trip time. lots of things are long overdue.

I know that, but I never said anything about finding the fastest way to Chestnut Hill. Besides, the trolley was there first, anyways. It can also eventually help revitalize of North Philly and Germantown. Look what's happening along Girard Ave from Front St to 33rd St.

Whats the difference between a trolley, bus, or trackless trolley (trolleybus)? Eventually, I believe, the 23 will return as a trolley/trolleybus line. In the meantime, there is no reason why it MUST be restored right now.

TheOneCalledA1 wrote:Whats the difference between a trolley, bus, or trackless trolley (trolleybus)? Eventually, I believe, the 23 will return as a trolley/trolleybus line. In the meantime, there is no reason why it MUST be restored right now.

A trolley or trackless trolley uses electricity as it's primary source of energy, unlike a reguar bus, which uses gasoline. With gas prices going up as it is, it would make a lot of sense for SEPTA to invest in classic and trackless trolleys.

wanderer34 wrote:

TheOneCalledA1 wrote:Whats the difference between a trolley, bus, or trackless trolley (trolleybus)? Eventually, I believe, the 23 will return as a trolley/trolleybus line. In the meantime, there is no reason why it MUST be restored right now.

A trolley or trackless trolley uses electricity as it's primary source of energy, unlike a reguar bus, which uses gasoline. With gas prices going up as it is, it would make a lot of sense for SEPTA to invest in classic and trackless trolleys.

I didn't make myself clear with my last post. I know what the difference between a diesel engine and an electric motor are, but why spend the money to restore the 23 as something other than a bus line, when it would cost more to do so than to fill the gas tanks on the buses that run on said line?

wanderer34 wrote:

Suburban Station wrote: I know that, but I never said anything about finding the fastest way to Chestnut Hill. Besides, the trolley was there first, anyways. It can also eventually help revitalize of North Philly and Germantown. Look what's happening along Girard Ave from Front St to 33rd St.

Right, but it seems to me that's more due to other factors. the fastest developing area of girard is around the el stop which, in turn, happened to be close to fishtown which, in turn, was where artists priced out of northern liberties moved in part because it was relatively safe. the rest of girard isn't exactly a posterchild for redevelopment. even the stretch close to well-to-do fairmount has been slow to come back to life.

TheOneCalledA1 wrote: but why spend the money to restore the 23 as something other than a bus line, when it would cost more to do so than to fill the gas tanks on the buses that run on said line?

An analysis would have to be done to determine the break even point of acquiring/running/maintaining trolleys vs. continued bus service factoring in projected future fuel cost.

Otto Vondrak wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote:PCC-II's have been in the tunnel (accidentally).

PCC's are banned from the Subway? But, I rode a PCC on a fan trip a couple of years ago... oh wait, was this before they got their roof-hump air conditioners?

-otto-

Actually the PCC 2 cars are banned from the tunnel not because of that god awful ugly hump on the roof clearing anything, its because its doesnt have some headlight on the roof of the car. Its sounds so stupid considering they ran in the tunnel for years before the K cars showed up but Septa just doesnt wantto run them in there. Before there was never a real rule for those cars never to run in the tunnel until a mechanical guy had to take the car from Callowhill to Elmwood and went thru the tunnel and got in trouble for doing it and after that they rule came into effect. The car went thru the entire tunnel with no problems

TheOneCalledA1 wrote:I didn't make myself clear with my last post. I know what the difference between a diesel engine and an electric motor are, but why spend the money to restore the 23 as something other than a bus line, when it would cost more to do so than to fill the gas tanks on the buses that run on said line?

Well, trolleys accelerate better than buses, so they make about 15% better net service speed; they carry more passengers (3 four-axle trolleys carry the load of 4 forty-foot buses), and they reduce noise and vibration impacts on the surrounding community. The total efficiency gain is nearly 50 percent, even before you get to energy savings. That said, yes, there are significant capital and overhead costs to trolleys that offset part or all those benefits.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

TheOneCalledA1 wrote:I didn't make myself clear with my last post. I know what the difference between a diesel engine and an electric motor are, but why spend the money to restore the 23 as something other than a bus line, when it would cost more to do so than to fill the gas tanks on the buses that run on said line?

Well, trolleys accelerate better than buses, so they make about 15% better net service speed; they carry more passengers (3 four-axle trolleys carry the load of 4 forty-foot buses), and they reduce noise and vibration impacts on the surrounding community. The total efficiency gain is nearly 50 percent, even before you get to energy savings. That said, yes, there are significant capital and overhead costs to trolleys that offset part or all those benefits.

less time lost due to fixed track issues. I tend to think that of the three options, a trolley bus is probably the best for this route which operates entirely on a narrow, congested right of way. are these buses overcrowded? with the 14 running 60 foot buses at two minute intervals, it woudl seem that line should probably first on SEPTA's list for some sort of investment (at least for the CTD).

Suburban Station wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

TheOneCalledA1 wrote:I didn't make myself clear with my last post. I know what the difference between a diesel engine and an electric motor are, but why spend the money to restore the 23 as something other than a bus line, when it would cost more to do so than to fill the gas tanks on the buses that run on said line?

Well, trolleys accelerate better than buses, so they make about 15% better net service speed; they carry more passengers (3 four-axle trolleys carry the load of 4 forty-foot buses), and they reduce noise and vibration impacts on the surrounding community. The total efficiency gain is nearly 50 percent, even before you get to energy savings. That said, yes, there are significant capital and overhead costs to trolleys that offset part or all those benefits.

less time lost due to fixed track issues. I tend to think that of the three options, a trolley bus is probably the best for this route which operates entirely on a narrow, congested right of way. are these buses overcrowded? with the 14 running 60 foot buses at two minute intervals, it woudl seem that line should probably first on SEPTA's list for some sort of investment (at least for the CTD).

Right, until some @$$ double parks on the tracks, thus "shutting down" the line until it's towed or the owner moves.