Train 1258 Fiasco at Harold

I'm on my way out the door to get on a late train, so I have to be quick here, but I believe the answers to all of your points is yes.
We're also seeing that this was much more than a basic P-wire problem.
Troubleshooting would not have been as basic as normally encountered.
Clem, you may have to become omnipresent, like Flash.

Tom

I heard from an unreliable source, that the Protecs derialed in Jamaica the night of the train broke down in Wooside? They usually pull into track 9 in Jamaica to go down to Morris Park around8/8:30. I don't remeber seeing them on Fri night. Also do the M-7's have a different compromise coupler than those of the M1/M3's? A few weeks ago train 2005 broke down just East of JS in Deer Park and I overheard someone say they didn't have the right coupler on the Eng that came out to rescue the broken down equip. I forgot if it was a new or old set of equipment.

The protects didn't derail that night, and the reason you didn't see them at Jamaica was they were finally coupled to the M-7's and hauled it in the clear at about 11 PM. The M-7's do have a different coupler than the M-1/3's. The compromise coupler to connect the two weighs 98 pounds and should be on every M-7. It's a beast to carry.

Clem

I seen the compromise coupler on the M7's more then once i recall it being under the engr cab. i also seen a M1/3-knuckel compromise under the engr cab on the MP15 (153) and that leads me to beleve that most MP's have them, as when ever there is snow or somthing in Valley they usally send a 1500 there for protect.
tho it was quite a suprise when i came out of the pizza store and low and beholed the protect 1001's were isoling thre F-F cuppled i do have pics tho they came out raher dark.

I guess breaker 11 must have something to do with the EMV's because if one opens they open on the entire train on a M-7 consist, correct?

Yes, and yes.

The pair of cars that caused this problem is in the house for PI. I looked at the report from the incident, and have my own sentiment as to what occurred to originally disable the train. Having jumped the gun once already, though, I'll wait and see if I can find out the final "official" outcome. The pair is still being tested for 750 in trainline and GTLs.
I will agree with Clem and Peanuts, though, that this was more in-depth than I originally interpreted. This was decidedly not a basic P-wire problem. You can't generate a P-wire if you can't charge your brake pipe!! You can't do much of anything without charged brake pipe.
And possibly the only way to have isolated the trainline problem would have been to retract. I would have to pore over some blueprints to see if cutting out all the EMVs in the consist would have worked. (Move very slowly with crew members ready on dump cords. It would be no worse than plugging EMV on M-1, no?) That probably wouldn't work. Some other things may be tied in to CB11 that would still preclude movement.

The relay that this was traced to is in a bolted-shut box underneath the train. The crew would have no idea that this relay even exists, nor would they be expected to. Workaround was the only option. Four hours is another story, which has already been beaten around.

Tom

P.S. Clem is right, of course. As people who have identified ourselves as employees, we always have to be careful what we say here. I feel there is no harm to the LIRR in discussing this. The incident happened. It was reported in media. It is not a secret. It would be foolish not to learn from it.

Why not assign a pair of qualified craft employees (electrician and machinist)
to 'roam' the area between Jamaica and the tunnels ? Set them up with a utility truck with tools and parts so they could be properly prepared to do on-site troubleshooting.

Not a new idea-actually. The NYC used 'diesel inspectors' to get failed locomotives going out in the field-and in more recent times, Conrail had craft employees that could be sent out to revive dead power on the Boston and Albany.

As for the compromise couplers-if they weight almost 100 lbs-why aren't they carried on the protect units vs a set for each car ?

The railroad has done this for special events, such as the Republican National Convention, concrete tie program and the Harold Project.

Currently there is a Road Car Inspector assigned to New York during the evening rush hour, and at times there is a car inspector at Harold. Overtime is a big issue these days, and the Railroad doesn't want to spend the money filling a job that simply "protects" an area.

Clem

To all,

When I made the statement about "lay off the managers" what I meant was there is another forum "Computerized Trains on The LIRR" which started off being technical but then went to bashing TM who entered the mangament program with little or no experience on the railroad as compared to those who rose thru the ranks. This went on for some time without addressing what the main topic of the forum was about. I felt since the other forum had bashed them to death, why should it start here. Regardless of what the person was wearing, looked liked, etc. there is no need to bring it up. How did that piece of information add any relevance to the situation other than to single the TM out?

I agree screaming and yelling at subordinates doesn't help the situation and if anyone out there feels that way, pull that TM to the side and tell them so. Thats how you as an employee and them as a manager become better. By not saying anything to them, who is to say that the behavior won't happen again and they think its ok to do so and you might be the next victim. Let them know its not and since you put them on the spot, they will (maybe they won't) respect you and not talk to you in such a manner. Its management 101!!!

Like I said, someone on the other end of the radio wants answers, the TM on the scene wants answers (like lets get this train going, why isn't it working) and nothing is getting done.

I was able to access the event log from 204 on that day. There was alot of stuff going on. From 6:23 to 8:18 two trains had to make a reverse move back to Harold and the protect engines showed up and the engineer and conductor were trying to troubleshoot the train . At 8:18 3rd rail power was removed so that the protects can hook up. At 8:30 pwr was restored and at 8:37 the protects were hooked up and charging. Evalcuation began at 9:17 and finished at 9:56.

In terms of troubleshooting the train, I have heard that by isolating the drum switches and then trying to charge the train each time from the lead pair would have solved the problem which is similar to what is being said here. Some of this stuff someone will know and some of it you won't. I bet the next time this happens (hopefully it won't) everybody will know what to do!

Again, I dont think that isolating the drum switches would of worked in this case. It was an electrical problem where you had to take the pins away. That is what they teach us, if you have an electrical problem on one train you avoid it my retracting the pins on the coupler. Isolating the drums switches would get you the ability to charge the train, maybe, it was an EMV blowing, was it not? Also, if you isolate the drums switches you leave yourself a 12 car train where you can only control service braking on one pair!!! (Because you have pulled all the drums switches to isolate them) Not very safe.

Honestly, it was a bad day for all. Hopefully we all learned something in the end.

TO LIRR272

The very purpose of describing that muu-muu'd manager WAS to single her out. It's your politically correct demands that will keep people telling her what a great job she's doing until she finally does get someone killed.

Let's not hurt her feelings.

No, LI, not the drum switches -- DUH -- as has been repeated here a dozen times.

You're one of those new managers, right? Loosen up tat fez, man.

The LIRR does have such a van outfitted to roam...Unit 269...but it really is meant to respond more to the outlying points like Long Beach, Far Rock, etc., where you may get an ATC failure or such, and there is no Electrician working there, for one example. I'm not sure if it's staffed on 4-12...I don't think it is. Clem, do you know?

Edit: It is staffed 4-12.

N340SG

Now that I think about it, I never really put much thought into wether the information that is given by employees like myself on this forum would be considered to be too much information to give. I've said quite a few things and read other posts and I can't truly categorize any of the information as being classified. the incident on friday was highly publicized by the media, so pretty much what we all spoke of would and should not cause any problems. And as far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't fall under classified information, then anything else would be a violation of our rights to freedom of speech. (look at me getting all political!)

As far as the road Car inspector, he was at Penn when this all came down, but I don't think that they sent him out there to look at the problem as I'm sure he is very needed at Penn being that it was during the middle of Rush hour. I'm sure that they sent someone from Jamaica over to Woodside. But in truth, the RR would never spend money to pay someone to simply sit at Harold with the protect engine just in case someone breaks down. One rumor that I heard yesterday was that the crew of this train reported to the Yard master of problems with the equipment, but were sent out anyway. those of us who work here will know that this is common place in that trains with mechanical problems are frequently sent out on the road.

Lastly, as far as bashing Management, I will say again that there are a few that i know personally who are great folks, and who I respect who have actually worked on trains and even worked in the training department, so if I experienced a problem on board with a train, and they were to show up, I'm sure that I would be able to depend on them to make rational descisions. However, there is still a majority that need a lot of training and understanding of how things work. yes, no one is born with RR experience, you gain it, and the only way of doing it is by working out on the field, not by being in the office. The priorities in their minds should be to focus on moving the trains quickly and SAFELY rather than just focusing on moving the train. It's a big difference.

VD,

Well if doing things right is considered politically correct to you oh well, I have no more to say on this subject. I just think its wrong to bash management in a public forum without addressing the situation with the people directly involved.

Clem,Peanuts and N340SG Tom: I saw a couple of quick news mentions on this - I had no idea it was this bad until I read the posts here! You seem to have found the source of the trouble - as said I hope it never happens again. I have a LIRR ridership guide from 2003 - this train has a ridership of 840 and is assigned 10 cars - meaning a lot of angry passengers on a Friday night mind you! I could just imagine what the train crew was going through and the hostile atmosphere towards them on that train. I enjoy reading all your posts-if the LIRR had more employes like you three,the LIRR would be a better place. I am glad to be a member of RR.net! Yours truly,MACTRAXX

Mac,

Thanks. The LIRR trained me well, paid me the whole time I trained, and I appreciate it. Without being a "Company Man", I try to do whatever I do the right way.
Just yesterday, they put myself and a tech support guy on an M-3 that had P-wire problem. By being thorough, we fixed three items that had a definite potential to cause future P-wire problems, as well as fixing the instant problem.

Tom