Train 1258 Fiasco at Harold

Sounds to me like La-Qwanda got a promotion!

I wish I was a fly on the wall on the Monday morning meeting when MR JJD holds the Monday morning school of events of what went on.
Wonder if he will just sit there or speak.
Chris

Max, let me start of by saying, I do feel for you. No one, and I mean no one should have to go through what happened the other night. Personally I am an engineer for the railroad, please dont thinkI am going to comment on anyone involved in the situation because I dont beleive in doing it. I wasnt there, I have no idea what happened, and I am not going to get involved in rumor.

I take pride in what I do, and while I enjoy my job, for now at least, not all employees are as bad as they seem. A sweeping majority of trainmen work there jobs from begining to end every day, I watch it everyday because I work those terrible trains that trainmen are said to 'bail-off' on. Granted, I am sure some of the work force is lazy, but not a 'collection' as you say.

As far as management, the good ones are too afraid to open there mouths, and the ones that do open their mouths dont know what they are talking about anyways. I will say that, and this is not a knock on my managers, but the people that work the trains everyday usually know more. As far as M-7's they are a totally different beast. The are still new, and most of the problems are just happeneing, and most crew arent prepared for this because simply the problem never arose before. I can think of an incident recently where I had an M-7 consist, and I knew excatly what I had to do but 204 had me go through 3 different things before they went to what I orginally said I had to do. BUt that is what they want, they really dont want you troubleshooting your train, well they want you to know what your doing, but just when they tell you to do it.

Also, for the M of E guy, I forgot your name, but I know all the terms you are talking about. Example, I know that the drum switch is equalivent to looping the P-wire on the coupler relay, and what the SBCO, and the BCCO are. I guess maybe because I paid attention in class? But training is not to blame. The first people that worked on the M-7 project took what they did very seriuosly and if you listened to them, you knew exactly what you needed to to be prepared for them.

Anyways, I guess thats about it, talk to everyone soon I guess...

Regardless of what was wrong with the train, what the crew did or didn't do, what supervision did to make it worse, etc, etc It is inexcusable that those people were stuck on that train for 4 hours. Frankly as an LIRR employee I am embarassed. Four hours in Harold !! It is not like they were stuck by Amagansett in the middle of a blizzard they were in Harold, it is beyond absurd. If they couldn't figure out how to move the train in a resonable amount of time say 30 to 45min they should have brought another train in front, behind or next to that one and gotten those people off. The people on that train should ride for free for the rest of the year.

bluebelly wrote: Frankly as an LIRR employee I am embarassed. Four hours in Harold !! It is not like they were stuck by Amagansett in the middle of a blizzard they were in Harold, it is beyond absurd. If they couldn't figure out how to move the train in a resonable amount of time say 30 to 45min they should have brought another train in front, behind or next to that one and gotten those people off. he people on that train should ride for free for the rest of the year.

Exactly. Accountability needs to be instilled immediatly before a more serious disaster happens. People laugh when 200 passengers (paying too btw) are stranded at KO waiting for their connecting train, only to be placed on overcrowded school buses with drivers who don't even know where they are going. No folks, this is no isolated incident here. This event is a mere microcosm of LIRR operations and is symptomatic of it's lax policies towards doing what would make operational, monetary, and commen sense.

Before I'm flamed to death, I really think that it is the responsibilty of management to set a good example for it's employees to follow. It should be interesting to see what Prez Dermoody has to say on the 9th..

Well as for the crew these things will happen, when my dad worked for amtrak they had to know how to trouble shoot every aspect of the engine before they could operate. The old heads on the lirr knew how to trouble shoot,some even break a train. The thing with this is thatno one knew what to do,maybe the engineer should have called the road forman of engines,shop forman to get the answer, or have them call bombardier'
24 hour hotline.Thats what we do if we operate a locomotive thats not working in service and pretty much tell us what to do. Much luck to the crew,but maybe someone should make it mandatory for operating managers to be in the same class as the crew when it comes to new equipment. Or maybe look at how you promote them,only from the ranks of the crew.

The crews, are trained to trouble shoot the M7s, including use of the drum switch to isolate pairs as oposed to looping the P-Wire as is done on the M1/3s. Even if they were unsure about how to troubleshoot this particular problem 204 is normally very good at at walking crews through troublesshooting procedures via the radio or phone. Of course there are some problems that are beyond the crews abilty to troubleshoot and repair in the field I assume that was the case here. As said in my earlier post the problem wasn't that they couldn't get the train moving , it was that it took 4 hours to get the passengers off. And that is not the crews fault.

Ahhh, Blue, now you say the crew had no responsibility? The Conductor who is in general charge of the train had no responsibility? The engineer who is in charge of that equipment's movement had no responsibility?

Always remember this, and I'm talking to you like a friend: The crew was unable to move the equipment. They called for help. Look at Appendix B - Train Evacuation:

"The Conductor is responsible for the train and its passengers until he is relieved."

He was never relieved. Did he sit around with his thumb you know where while some manager in an African moo-moo let his train and his passengers rust to the rails? Or did he step up to the plate and tell Jamaica exactly what were the state of affairs? If 100 managers are on the scene, the Conductor is still in charge and has responsibility for his passengers and train, unless he is relieved of that duty.

A crew is in charge must take the responsibility that comes with it. Show me that the Conductor, Engineer and crew did all he could to move that train and to demand competent assistance.

Blue, it's obvious that getting help to that train was management's job, and it is obvious that management failed to do that. But what if the train was on fire? What if it was down in Line 4 and Miss Moo-Moo appeared on the scene. It's you and her, and The Lord and you know she ain't going to be any help. What does the crew do?

We're all in this together, Blue, and I'm not beating you up, but the word has to get out that you and your engineer are in charge, regardless of what band of idiots materialize to save the day.

Don't like what's going down? Unless you are specifically told "You're releived," it's your bag. Remember if your wife and kids were on that train, you'd fight for their lives. Keep that in mind because somebody's wife and kids is there.

This crew dropped the ball.

C

Clem
I love reading your posts. They are straight to the point and pull no punches. I know you work for the railroad which makes me a little surprised at your frankness. But your posts speak of a knowledge of the railroad that gives us fans a glimpse into what actually goes on. Thank you for sharing.

Clem, how do you get 'the crew had no resposibilty ' from my posts? Re -read them. I think you misunderstood me or maybe I did not make myself clear. Nowhere in my posts did I say the "the crew had no responsibilty" You are putting words in my mouth. Where I said "... and that is not the crews fault " was refering strictly to the lengh of time it took to send a rescue train. I did not mean that crew had no responsibilty regarding other aspects of the situtation or that they did not drop the ball. The truth is I don't know what happend as I said earlier all I know about what happened is what I read here.
It was N340SG who said it wasn't the crews fault because they are not trained to trobleshoot M7s. It was I who pointed out that infact , we are taught how to trouble shoot the M7s and this crew should have known what to do and even if they didn't 204 should have walked them through the necessary procedures. How is that saying the crew had no responsibilty?
But all that is neither here no there . As I said in my first post "Regardless of what was wrong with the train, what the crew did or didn't do, what supervision did to make it worse, etc, etc It is inexcusable that those people were stuck on that train for 4 hours" I stand behind my statement. You can blame the crew for not properly troubleshooting the problem, you can blame them for not keeping the passengers informed but you can't possibly blame the crew for taking 4 hours to bring up a rescue train.As you said that is a management decision, and whoever took 4 hours to make that decision dropped the ball big time. And in my opinion making those people wait 4 hours for rescue is far worse then the crew not being able to get the train moving. They should have gotten those people off the train, that should have been the priority. Once the passengers safely on the way then the crews performance or lack of could be delt with. There is obviously plenty of blame to go around here, not excluding the crew,but since Conductors and Engineers seem to be the only ones held accountable on the RR they are probably the only ones who will swing.
And to answer your question if my train was on fire and the traffic cone in question showed up I would do whatever is neccesary to get my passengers to safety even if it meant disregarding a direct order from said Boss. I would probably get fired but I least I would not have to live with the fact that I let 1000 people burn .
By the way, maybe I missed it in one of yor earlier posts but what exactly was wrong with the train? Was it something beyond the crews ability to troubleshoot in the field?

By the way, maybe I missed it in one of yor earlier posts but what exactly was wrong with the train? Was it somethging beyond the crews ability to troubleshoot in the field?

Clem,

I'd like to know that, too. Not having access to RSMS any more, I can't look it up. If you can't post the details publicly, please PM me.

Bluebelly and Peanuts,

It's good to know that at least some crews are being trained on the new equipment.
I use the magic word "If" a lot in my posts, and it is often overlooked.
My conjectures and opinions are always plainly identified as such. However, next time I will "lay back" even longer.
But, if this crew was in fact trained on the M-7 troubleshooting, then the plot only thickens. I would like to find out what exactly was wrong with this thing, and would the problem have been within the realm of what the crew (with or without outside assistance) would be expected to be able to find a workaround for. Hints and indications from assorted posts seem to say yes. I'd just like to know, as an interested M of E person, what was done and not done, for future reference, as well as what the actual problem was.

There are, unquestionably, lessons to be learned from this sordid episode.

Tom, henceforth AKA "That M of E guy"

To VD Yard:

What is a "Moo-Moo"?

To Jay:

La-Qwanda is reflective of the LIRR's policy of hiring "non-traditional" employees. And lucky for us, she can use the skills she learned in York College to propel the LIRR into the 21st Century! She's going to be President one day...of the LIRR and the USA at the same time.

To Clemuel:

Interesting post.

To Bluebelly:

If VD Yard clarifies what exactly that a "Moo-Moo" is, maybe you can suggest wearing that as part of your uniform.

To Peanuts:

I'm an Engineer too. I think we might consider asking the Railroad if we can wear "Moo-Moo's" too. If not, then maybe a blue Fez in honor of "non-traditional" employees.

To Max:

Well, whether you believe it or not, many of us on the LIRR are extremely embarrassed and more than sympathetic to how customers are caught up in this nonsense. It is a large corporation and there are many employees there that honestly try to do their jobs and are the backbone of the Railroad.

Liquidcamphor wrote:
To Bluebelly:

If VD Yard clarifies what exactly that a "Moo-Moo" is, maybe you can suggest wearing that as part of your uniform.

Only if you wear it too,

To Max

I personally feel for you that you had to experience what you did. I can't even imagine being stuck for that long. But I would like to clarify something to eevryone here. The Crew has a responsibility to run the train safely and on-time. If things happen, we have been trained to trouble shoot a number of things, many of it is our T.H.E.M. manual which is something like a Chilton's guide to automobiles, but not as detailed. The fact really is, and I can tell you this by experience through my training, we are all trained to do what i would consider to be "small" trouble shooting. If indeed something does seriously go wrong such as the case with this train, we might not be able to do much. I'm pretty sure that the crew were busy trying to trouble shoot by trial an error, but that sometimes does take time. However, the descision to send a rescue unit or another train to evacuate the passengers falls squarely on management. If the crew seemed lost to you, It probably was due to the fact that they personally have exhausted every option they had to move the train and were now in the hands of management.

I'm not going to get into the other stuff that you have mentioned, i would personally request for you to read about what I wrote under the category of "Computerized Trains on the LIRR". I don't expect commuters in general to understand what it is we do, what it is that we are trained to do, and what we do on our jobs, but I do say this, it's easy to judge by looking at the cover of the book, but means nothing when you haven't looked on the inside. If you have seen someone sleeping, more than likely it's because they are deadheading into or coming home from work. We have the same rights as commuters do to sleep, eat, read a newspaper, or look at our laptops if we are not on duty. Yes, RR employees do get paid very good to do what we do, but I don't run into many employees who fall under the category that you describe, and I can certainly tell you that the problems that you experience on the trains are not related to as what the crew does, but rather what the orders are being told to us. That's what everyone doesn't see, WE have no authority to do many of things that you may feel are actually our responsibility. I have actuallt spoken to many commuters on-board, and I have absolutely no problem talking to them and telling them what exactly is that we do, what we know, and who is in charge. I absolutely agree with you that no-one should have had to wait that long to get home. That was beyond crazy, but lets not go off blasting on the crew, because they also do what they are told to do. We actually are not paid to make descisions during those crazy times, thats what they have management for.

On one side note, I actually have an idea of who that lady was that you saw on the train. I'm not mentioning names, but i did laugh at some of the things that were said above about her. I'm even surprised that anyone in management had the guts to board that train and speak to the passengers. That has to be a first in my book!

I like 'traffic cone' better. It's just plain funny