To electrify or not to electrfy the Port Jefferson Branch

I have been following the problems of the LIRR going on 45 years. Seen it go from private ownership to public, seen electrical service expanded many miles, platforms raised, new equipment purchased...and quess what, the same problems exsist.
The real problems are 3 fold, unions, the movement of mass numbers of people in the same direction twice a day and the excess amount of trains that reguires, and the amount of time between the peak periods, 8 hours, and the amount of employees that reguires.
As bad as the DE/DMs are, they are the only solution which has been offered that tries to take on many of these core problems. You need to get more people on the same number of trains, using less employees and equipment. You need more flexibilty from your employees to deal with the LIRR unique work load. You need an increase in off peak time utilization of the system. Untill you address those problems, they'll be talking about the same problems, and answers, when our grand kids are riding on nuclear trains...

They definately need to add 1 track from Jamaica to Ronkonkoma(with the exception of Hicksville to Farmingdale).

They should also double track the PJ to Smithtown.

And maybe even re-open Landia as a park and ride. It's so close to the LIE. It'd be the perfect location.

Using less employees is not the solution as many believe, and one figures that we have this excess number of employees working on the RR on a daily basis. Less employees means less eyes, and in these times, eyes are what we need. We have more than enough employees?? Thats funny, because most of the times, I am collecting a total of 3 to 4 cars, many times on a 10-12 car train fully loaded with passengers. If something is happening in the last car, how would I know?? There have been some really intelligent folks out there who feel that a Conductor's job is easier now that most people have monthlys on them, so we do less. Once again, the commuter speaks and puts his foot in his mouth. The only time that I have more Monthly tickets being displayed is during peak times, but try the weekends, I have been coming up with cash reports that number from $500 to even $1000 dollars in ONE day. Factor in all the lovely drunks that ride the trains that harrass customers, free loaders, scammers and so on, and you begin to get a better feel for what we have to deal with regularly. Punching tickets is not the only thing that is required of our jobs as many believe. the safety of passengers is a huge responsiblity of any crew member.

The fact is that you cannot run a commuter railroad without having that excess number of equipment and employees to run it. You can only run 12-cars on our trains, and even then, 12 cars can be a bigger hazard when regarding safety and the amount of people that are on-board our trains. Employees provide flexibility, it's management rules and even federal rules which are often backed by the unions that may hamper some of that flexibility that employees may offer. Increasing the number of trains during off-peak times only works on certain branches at certain parts of the day. the Ronokonkoma branch can use an increase in off-peak service, and reverse commute during the normal peak hours are sorely needed, however, increasing the number of trains all together during off-peak times would be an even greater loss of money. Branches such as the OB, W Hempstead, Far Rock, Hempstead, and Long Beach have light ridership during numerous times of the day that falls under Off-peak hours. The problems that exist have more to do with politics, the ever increasing population, and poor management. You may also not figure it to be true, but some problems exist also due to the commuters themselves. Guess who is responsible for making the trains look dirty and run-down?? Come ride with me any day and I will show you what the train looks like after we discharged all of our passengers. A bomb hit it, thats what it looks like, and yet people complain of how dirty the trains are. The solutions that thrdkilr speaks of are not feasable to any commuter operation country wide. Commuters themselves will certainly not fathome riding on shorter trains with less frequency, and less employees. Of course, everyone feels that they should be having free rides at the same time. God knows that Taxis, Buses and Airlines don't charge people a fee to ride, and when was the last time an airline refunded your money for less than desirable service??? Solutions are easy to speak of, but incorporating it into everyday use is a bit more difficult to accomplish.

Electrifying the PJ branch would not be wise because the funds are more needed elsewhere on the system. Improving the Patchogue and Port Jeff should not be started until the bottlenecks on the Main Line are removed. Otherwise improvements on the branches will result in little improvement in service.

The biggest bottleneck is the East River tunnels. Hence, the East Side Access project. The main line between Floral Park and Hicksville is probably the second biggest bottleneck. With only two tracks the LIRR cannot run many express, local, and reverse commute trains at the same time.

To be fair to the communities the main line goes through, the tracks should be grade separated when the third track goes in. This will increase costs a lot, but will result in fewer accidents, less grade crossing maintenance and less noise and traffic congestion. Probably, the tracks should be depressed or the streets raised, like Mineola Blvd., as opposed to elevated. Less noise and aesthetic impacts.

These projects will not only benefit PJ branch riders, but many riders from many branches. This means more riders can be transported to Manhattan.

Incidentally, electrifying the PJ will cause a capacity problem. Filling the PJ yard with MU's instead of C3's will result in fewer seats since C3's have more seating capacity per linear foot of track.

The number riders, the number of potential riders, and the potential reduction in travel time do not warrant the expense of electrifying the PJ. Electrification is very expensive to build and maintain. Arguably, some lightly travelled sections of the LIRR already electrified don't warrant the expense.

Interestingly, DM trains would be the logical alternative. However, the LIRR's success in this direction has been disappointing. The safety, travel time, reliability, and one seat/one ride have worked fine, but the number of one-seat one ride trains is so low that the public is disappointed.

Mark, of course your right, what I'm suggesting is not feasible, if it were, it would have been done. But if your honest, you would have to admit your looking at it through the eyes of an employee(union member). Just as we who would love to see more tracks, routes, and equipment are looking through rail fan eyes.
You have to admit, if you could come up with a single train, that holds 2-3-4 times the passengers, only requiring 1 conductor, willing to work 2, 4 hour shifts to facilitate peak hours, or having equal amounts of passengers using the system east/west, more using it north/south, that this would solve almost all the problems faced by the LIRR. Less equipment, less tracks, less employees, and fewer empty seats is the only way to make passenger trains profitable.
AMTRAK NE corridor is profitable because of this, less empty seats, occupied for longer periods, and equal amounts of passengers going both ways....
Looking through rose colored glasses or protecting ones turf is also not practical.....

Instead of double-tracking east of Huntington, our beloved TA is pissing millions on M7's and ESA. Why not improve what we have already? Then again, why waste my breath, politicans could care less about the PJ, ESA is where the PR cow is at.

-Tom

KFRG wrote:Instead of double-tracking east of Huntington, our beloved TA is pissing millions on M7's and ESA. Why not improve what we have already? Then again, why waste my breath, politicans could care less about the PJ, ESA is where the PR cow is at.

-Tom

We need to replace the M1 fleet. They are falling apart gradually.

Thrdkilr...

Is there something wrong with an employee of a company having a life?

Take a guy like "Mark" working as you suggested..He reports to work at approximately 5am to work the morning rush-hour until 9am..four hours as you described. Then he goes home waiting to return to work at around 4pm to work the evening rush-hour. Since he lives on LI as most LIRR employees, he doesn't walk in his home until around 10:30 to 11am. He can't go anywhere far nor take his kids out, nor screw his wife or anything a human being in the richest Country on Earth should be doing. Why? He has to catch a 2:30pm train to NY to report at 4pm. So he can work the evening rush-hour until 8pm..the additional four hours you described. Now once again, a probable LI resident, he doesn't get home until 9:30 to 10pm...all this for 8 hrs pay and so the average commuter can save on their fare, the MTA can continue to mismanage the LIRR to bankrupcy and everyone else that is not a Conductor on the LIRR can enjoy a reasonable life of an average 8hr workday..but not Mark..no he's a Conductor so he shouldn't have a life. Maybe save the LIRR some money and buy his uniform and have the crew chip in for the diesel fuel.

Forgive me please for being a wiseguy, I really am not trying to be that way and all of us have our opinions..that's why we are Americans. But I am not being unrealistic describing the life of Mark the LIRR Conductor in working as you suggested.

Mark the LIRR Conductor doesn't own the LIRR..he signed onto a Railroad that promised him 8hrs pay for an 8hr day..they didn't tell him he had to have the LIRR consume his life for 15hrs a day for 8hrs pay. They did demand that he give them 100% of himself, his ability and concerns while on their time and hopefully he is doing that, but when he was off-duty, his time was his time...if he wanted to have a railroad consume his life he should be President of the LIRR with the compensation that goes along with that..or better yet, buy a railroad.

Thank goodness for unions!

We need to replace the M1 fleet. They are falling apart gradually.

Something tells me a total rebuild program for the majority of worthy cars would be much cheaper than the design, and production of a whole fleet of brand new cars. As others have voiced here before, instituting a new fleet all at once just leads to another problem years down the road.
And now the TA want's "M9"'s? Whatever the hell those are. I have absolutely zero faith and confidence in the inept brass who oversee the RR.
Whatever, it's just OUR money, right?

-Tom

KFRG wrote:

We need to replace the M1 fleet. They are falling apart gradually.

Something tells me a total rebuild program for the majority of worthy cars would be much cheaper than the design, and production of a whole fleet of brand new cars. As others have voiced here before, instituting a new fleet all at once just leads to another problem years down the road.
And now the TA want's "M9"'s? Whatever the hell those are. I have absolutely zero faith and confidence in the inept brass who oversee the RR.
Whatever, it's just OUR money, right?

-Tom

They are going to Overhaul the M3s within the next few years. The overhaul has started. The M1s the ones that were overhauled in the late 1990's, will be replaced within 5 years, I think.

Liguidcam, chill dude.... I am talking in extremes, the most efficient, cost effective situation to running the railroad. You would be surprised at what can be made to happen if you think outside the box, try a new paradigm. Having experienced the job situation which is becoming more and more prevalent in this country for non-specialized, non-entrepreneurial, and non-trustfund recipient types, Walmart ($6 hr, 39.5 hr per week, 3% annual raises for those who walk on water, and if they ever anoint you to full time status,- horrible benifits {30% of your pay to get them, the rest of it for deductables}), and these jobs will be gone when they figure away to hire illegals. I would kill for a split 4 or 6/2. with the pay, pension and bennies the LIRR has. Of course those lucky enough to already be getting what Mark has, would be grandfathered in. You need to take care of those passengers (ie, people who can afford the tickets on a daily basis) they may be becoming a thing of the past, then none of this will matter. We'll still have our pictures. If the situation is not changed, these will be the good old days.....

Liquidcamphor: 3 hours is not enough time to have a matinee with one’s spouse?

Seriously, I agree that the idea of split shifts is not reasonable, but are there ways to increase service with the same number of employees? I remember before the West Side Yard and Holban were finished the Regional Plan Association laid out an idea of splitting 12 car trains in Penn near the end of the AM rush into three 4 car trains and sending them east for one or two round trips before reassembling them to 12 car trains for the PM rush. This particular idea seems frought with peril, but ideas like this may help.

This may sound un-American, but the LIRR should not be expected to be profitable. The LIRR provides a government service, much the same as schools, libraries, parks, fire departments, etc. The LIRR benefits, not merely the riders, but the environment and economy of the region as whole. Imagine without the LIRR the air pollution, congestion, unacceptably wide highways, wasted time, land devoted to parking lots, etc. Additionally, we suburbanites tend to forget not everyone owns or can drive cars. The LIRR provides mobility for teens, the elderly, the poor and people with disabilities. Instead of thinking of commuter railroads as entities that need subsidies to survive, I submit we should think of commuter railroads as services where some of the costs are defrayed by user fees.

This is getting off my original point. I will quit while I am ahead.(?)

thrdkilr,

Just what kind of employee do you think can be hired to work that split shift at the wages you describe? One to whom you'd trust your family's safety? Right now the Railroad can't find reliable help at the prevailing wage. Three quarters of those chosen for employment fail out, lose interest, fail drug tests or steal money and run away.

And please, just because you've conceded that your labor is worth less than the 55 Grand a trainman makes doesn't mean that figure constitutes wealth of any sort. Don't flatter yourself. If you truly had a marketable skill, you would not envy a guy taking home $700/week. As we usually say to those who criticize the LIRR for paying a journeyman's salary, "put in a resume." Or learn how to do something that's marketable.

Frankly, if you looked around, you'd recognize that ALL craftspeople make more than you do... and most make far more than Railroad employees... Let's see, carpenters get $51.80/hr; Electricians $83.55. Crane oilers $55.21. Those are prevailing NY wages, right off the Labor Bureau's Web Site. Face the fact that maybe you need a new job.

And yes, the LIRR could make money. It could reduce the 600 man management ranks back to the 67 men from twenty years ago. It could institute an automatic fare collection system and eliminate half its trainmen. It could specify sensible, off the shelf railcars and components that are easy and cheap to repair. It could design its capital projects the way a private company would and not spend $13 million renovating a station that's smaller than a two family house.

I can go on and on. No company that pays its employees third world wages gets good workers. But a good company manages its help, sets and monitors productivity standards and holds the workers accountable for their labor. They pay when the inductry demands for skilled, reliable and responsible help.

Unfortunately no government agency with a book of blank checks will have any incentive to do the job efficiently or properly.

Clem

thrdkilr wrote:Liguidcam, chill dude.... I am talking in extremes, the most efficient, cost effective situation to running the railroad. You would be surprised at what can be made to happen if you think outside the box, try a new paradigm. Having experienced the job situation which is becoming more and more prevalent in this country for non-specialized, non-entrepreneurial, and non-trustfund recipient types, Walmart ($6 hr, 39.5 hr per week, 3% annual raises for those who walk on water, and if they ever anoint you to full time status,- horrible benifits {30% of your pay to get them, the rest of it for deductables}), and these jobs will be gone when they figure away to hire illegals. I would kill for a split 4 or 6/2. with the pay, pension and bennies the LIRR has. Of course those lucky enough to already be getting what Mark has, would be grandfathered in. You need to take care of those passengers (ie, people who can afford the tickets on a daily basis) they may be becoming a thing of the past, then none of this will matter. We'll still have our pictures. If the situation is not changed, these will be the good old days.....

On this, I can add the following:
New York State and especially the New York City Metropolitan Area has
the highest cost of living in the nation.
It is not fair to expect the railroad or transit employees to subsidize the fare box.
If you are living on Long Island and working in New York City, it is highly
likely that you can afford to pay for your fare.
The MTA commuter railroads pay well but they also have very high and
strict work standards. If they are going to get people to work for them,
they need to pay well. NO ONE is going to work a sixteen hour day for
eight hours pay.
Noel Weaver

Why can't you guys have a discussion without taking or making it personal? 1st of all, I'm retired military (22 years, 2 wars), have a college degree and an A&P license (got them at night school). Had been working on those marketable skills during my career. I was shocked to find the job situation when I retired. Down here in South Florida a friend of mine is a construction sight foreman for high rises, he tells me they now have to write into the contracts that at least one guy will speak english per crew. That the apprenticeship programs are going by the wayside because management doesn't want to pay them while they learn (ex. appren. crane operators, they used to do all the grunt work and then observe during crane ops), these guys will do electrician's, plumber's and masonary work at half what the UNION GUY's get! They work here for a couple of years (8-10 toa trailer/duplex) and then go back to their home countries and live like king's for 20 years. I don't have that option, I thought I was already home. Something like 25% of said countries GNP come from US wages! Thats what my son will have too compete with. Don't think your safe, you might be one of the last they come for, but their coming!
I believed I used the words EXTREME several times, which means, the answer lies from the present situation to that extreme, it was laying the framework for a discussion, not a salvo. Besides, is expertise, really how a lot of LIRR guys get their jobs? Politics, nepotism, networking, where do I go to school to learn/ get certified in those fields?
Do you want to have a discussion or put up walls?