SLE Westbrook Station (was: What happened to the new?)

Thanks for the link EGE, I was about to come asking questions about construction at Branford as I noticed the start of it when I was there the other day.

Does anyone know how long construction is supposed to take?

NHAirLine wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:No. Do not derail another thread with this "SLE should have push-pull electrics" fantasy. It is going to run EMU's that are bought and paid for. It will run those EMU's until those EMUs' lifespan is over. What they shoulda done is irrelevant to this thread. This is what they DID DO. It is done. It will not be redone.

Until they have to run east of New London (if they can even get the MUs to work in New London) and go "OH SH*T" since the MUs can't platform at the low levels east of New London. Then what do they do? Go back to diesels? Although, as much as they've been using the wrong equipment for the past 13 years, I'm not believing we'll see anything electric until I actually see it running. Although it's obviously the wrong thing to do, and has been for the past 13 years, I wouldn't be surprised if we still have P40's and GP-40's running SLE for years into the future. Although they are the wrong equipment for the service, I know people who live along the route will be very happy if SLE really ever does electrify, and not have to listen to the screaming turbos of the Geep's as they roar out of the station.

Far more Amtrak trains stop at New London today than SLE, including the also can't-board-at-lows Acela. That mini-high platform is there for a reason.

New London will get raised. It's a complicated job because the historic station is privately owned, the grade crossings for the ferry terminal are there, it's on a curve, two major freight carriers pass through there, and there are two passenger carriers using it. More money than the usual platform raising, more involved design than the usual platform raising, and more stakeholders who have to agree on the plan. But it will get done. It's a high priority.

Let's please not forget that the Connecticut River Bridge needs to be replaced before SLE even has the chance to increase its schedule east of Old Saybrook. That bridge design is funded and being fast-tracked for an accelerated start, but it will not be until 2016 at the earliest before they can start construction. There's not going to be any more than the 4 or 5 SLE trains that terminate at the NLN mini-high today for at least the next 5 years while bridge is being taken care of. There are no more slots to give today, and the associated slow zones and single-tracking around the bridge may temporarily constrain it further for the few years that full construction is underway. So there's no point in adding more NLN runs to the schedule when CDOT will have to give them right back as a logistical necessity during construction. The timetable for construction gives ample opportunity to get a design funded and going on a reconfigured New London. There's no need to do it right this second because the bridge is infrastructure and funding Priority #1 and the only means for NLN to get the increased traffic. On today's spotty SLE schedule...there's not enough ridership at New London to overcrowd that mini-high platform. For the next 5 years any equipment--push-pull or EMU--can make do only opening doors in the front car there.

If they haven't unveiled a station renovation prelim design for public comment by 2016...that's the time to start asking tough questions. But it is pretty well moot until then because of the bridge dependency on increasing service levels.

Priorities. CT River Bridge > NLN platforms for developing the SLE schedule and ridership out there. One can't happen without the other. And the latter doesn't take nearly as long (or as disruptively) to construct as the former, so in 2013 there isn't nearly the mad dash to get NLN upgraded as there is to get the bridge design final and ready for the heavy machinery to descend on Old Saybrook.

NHAirLine wrote:That's a low-volume, occasional stop for some Acelas. Most Amtrak trains stopping there can go low or high. And how do you handle the center door cars on a curve? It doesn't work very well, if at all. Acelas and Regionals have end doors.

200 ft. is the same exact length as Madison, Clinton, and Branford. 2 full M8 cars + front door on the third. It's not a stubby platform by SLE standards. They have not sent the surveyors out to measure actual platform gap vs. car positioning yet, because the M8's haven't been tested yet on the east-of-New Haven voltage. So it's premature to say what NLN's loading capacity would be. They have to pinpoint the stopping spot that minimizes the gap on the curve and plunk down one of those "First Car Stops Here" signs, and that's not something they can know with certainty from an engineering schematic. They have to take a car out there, bring the surveyors with their laser levels and whatnot, and try out configurations. If the gap is narrow enough that front door can open on 2...maybe even 3 cars...then the loading capacity of an M8 will exceed NLN's actual ridership on this schedule and it's full-speed ahead. Or...if the gap is a little iffy they can outfit bridge plates the crew can work. As a terminal stop where the train is going to be laying over a few extra minutes on-platform before heading back inbound or pulling away from the platform onto a siding, the extra minute or two for the crew to snap the bridge plate into place on the front door of the first 3 cars is negligible for the passenger load out there.

Again, this is only temporary because that bridge holds up schedule expansion or construction of more east-of-OSB intermediate stops. So this is a non-issue unless there is zero news of a station renovation prelim design by 2016. Also...the M8's are pretty unlikely to replace the full schedule at first because the option order that supplies SLE will take until 2015 to get delivered and deployed. They're probably only taking over Old Saybrook first so the GP40's can get pulled for their rebuild program, with the P40's and coach fleet still serving New London runs for another year or two. It will in all practicality be 2016 before the roster is 100% set and can take over the whole route. By that point you will know approximately when a NLN renovation is scheduled. So that front-door only or bridge plate boarding may only need to last 1-3 years.

I would not worry about this, because the timeline can't be sped up. The Kawasaki plant can only pump out those cars so fast after the delayed start, and (to deflect the inevitable next question) there is no rental equipment they can acquire in this timeframe from NJT, Amtrak, and the MBTA. Those agencies are not disposing of any surplus equipment before 2015-16 when their new or heavily Sandy-repaired equipment has proven beyond shadow of doubt that it's battle-tested and that there's no need to keep the old fleet in storage to run on a moment's notice if there's a problem with the new. That's standard, sane operating procedure. And it won't match up with the timeframe in which SLE will be fully outfitted with new equipment. No, they will not alter this. Because no transit agency would be reckless enough to gut its safety net like that.

They should cancel all SLE service to NLC until they can run bi-directional service to Westerly (low-level) with stops at Mystic (low-level), Groton, New London, Waterford, Niantic, and Old Lyme. Until then, it doesn't really go anywhere. No one rides it from NLC, as it doesn't go anywhere, and the schedule sucks.

This is a dumb statement. If you cancel the service, it's never coming back. Do you want better service on this corridor or not? Because you aren't getting that with the attitude "if it's not MY definition of perfect, it's not worth doing at all." That is a great way of ensuring that no transit improvement ever gets made...ever.

These are temporary constrictions. The bridge opens up more slots, it takes a few years to design a NLN renovation because of the complexity of the job and all the different stakeholders, and that doesn't matter until the bridge is done. Today's New London schedule is the baseline from which they can increase it. And enough people are riding it to justify continued funding, otherwise they would've cut it long ago. It would be stupid policy to get rid of it, because if you are actually successful in restarting it your schedule baseline is going to be very small. Not [what it is today] x 3 or something like that...Amtrak will grab all the vacated slots and then you start from square one. And lose all your leverage to get it back from Amtrak, because CDOT doesn't own or dispatch the Shoreline.

And no, you can't get rid of it then stamp your feet and make Amtrak give it all back when you gave away all your leverage. Giving away your leverage for the future is a voluntary choice.

Fair enough, but they should think ahead. Although they clearly don't.

How do you know that? How do you know they aren't working behind the scenes on it? If they don't have a prelim design to present to the public, and the bridge is still in final design process with no construction date firmed up until the design is done...there's nothing to say in public about a probable platform configuration or a probable schedule. That doesn't mean they aren't talking. Amtrak in particular keeps this stuff close-to-vest until there's a reason to go public with specifics, so you cannot assume with certainty that nothing is happening. Inconsistent little CDOT is not the lord and ruler of the Shoreline...Amtrak is. So inconsistent little CDOT is not going to be leaking anything until Amtrak gives the all-clear.

Don't assume things you have no evidence to back up.

NHAirLine wrote:What happens when it's a stop on the way to Westerly? And Mystic and Westerly are low-level? If they have accurate dimensions of the track platform, and car, someone good with CAD could figure it out fairly quickly. Although it's probably easier just to send a set out there since they need to test them at some point anyways. Traditional end-door equipment doesn't have any of those problems and stops there every day for Amtrak and CDOT.

Westerly and Mystic are not funded for full highs yet. Amtrak is just beginning construction on Kingston. Those two stops are next up for upgrades, but those are likewise 3+ years away from being funded and designed. CDOT is also not extending SLE past New London until RIDOT starts running its Providence-Westerly service in 2020. It has no jurisdiction across the state line, and it cannot lay over there until RIDOT reconstructs the adjacent yard into a commuter rail layover for its service and Amtrak adds the third track. There's no place to park to steer clear of Amtrak traffic today. Likewise, there are no crossovers between the junction with P&W in New London and Westerly for turning back at Mystic in the meantime. Amtrak has no plans to install crossovers in its final NEC Infrastructure Master Plan. Look it up. Mystic can only be an intermediate stop, not a terminal stop. Therefore any future extension of SLE is dependent on Westerly and RIDOT. 2020. That's RIDOT's target date for start of service. Go write an angry unhinged letter to Amtrak instead of screaming at RR.net posters if you don't like the fact that Mystic is not and will not be configured for a turnback.

Do you get it? There's the bridge. There's the multi-party design process for the New London platforms. There's RIDOT's rollout of its homegrown commuter rail. There's Mystic and Westerly needing to wait their turn in the funding queue behind vastly more important Kingston. There's the M8 delivery needing to finish for Metro North before SLE even gets testing. All of these are project dependencies that cannot be sped up. It is impossible to civil engineer big complicated pieces of infrastructure faster than that. You don't get your first crack at ANYTHING new to New London until 2016 at the earliest. So what is the freakin' rush??? As I said, if there is a disconcerting lack of progress on NLN station design in 3 years and Amtrak has lost any interest in ADA'ing Westerly and Mystic with high platforms...that's the time to start asking tough questions. But you can't use any of that capacity sooner. And furthermore, you have no bloody idea what talks may or may not be going on behind the scenes right now. So why are you assuming that jack squat is happening?


As for engineering platforms on a curve...if you've got all the answers why don't YOU go fire up AutoCAD if you are so damn sure you know how to do a surveyor's job better than the surveyors. Go tell them they should be fired for holding back progress and yada yada just like you think you can tell the railroaders.

But it will still be on a curve. If they build to the south of the station, there is a bit less of a curve, but the curve is still there.

Yeah, so? Stations are built with full-highs on a curve all the time. Check out the Yawkey Station thread on the MBTA forum. That's being constructed right now on a tricky curve pinned in under a bridge. It took some deft engineering, unusual layout, and precision-cut prefab platform pieces to do it gapless...but they did it. And it'll be able to swallow large crowds coming in for Red Sox games at adjacent Fenway Park. It is not impossible. It's just tricky and takes TIME to engineer. You cannot assess the engineering viability of constructing a full-high on that location by staring at it from Google Maps. If you think you can, I repeat: go fire up AutoCAD, do it your own damn self, then pitch the design to an architectural firm for profit. Go on...you got all the answers now, don't you?

There have to be electric locos available at some point. If it's not NJT, then Amtrak. They can't buy a handful of locos new (well they could but they would be astronomically expensive), so they'd either have to pick them up used, or wait until an order went in that they could piggyback on. And coaches are a dime a dozen. There must be other places with coaches available second hand.

Not before 2016. Because Amtrak is holding the full AEM-7 and HHP-8 fleets in storage for at least 1 year after the full Sprinter order. It's in their Fleet Management Plan...go look it up. NJ Transit still has unexercised options on its ALP-45DP's that it hasn't picked up in large part because of the big Sandy interruption, and they are only halfway through the MLV coach deliveries with 25 options still to decide on. They are not disposing of any old Comets or ALP-44's on the open market in the next 2 years.

What is so hard to understand about this timetable? Things CAN'T happen in any less than 3 years. Some of them rooted in basic laws of physics.

There's no reason to run service unless people actually ride it. Almost no one rides SLE to NLC, so they should cancel it. They need to launch the service when they have the ridership to support it. If they can't average 100+ passenger average, then they shouldn't bother running the service. It's not worth it. I do believe, however, that if they put bi-directional, intermediate stations in and can offer 25-30 round trips a day, then the ridership will follow. If I'm wrong, and if the studies prove I'm wrong, then they should accept OSB as the terminus for service and put the resources elsewhere, or put them into a parking garage and other improvements for OSB and stations between OSB and NHV.

AND YOU CAN'T DO THAT TODAY BECAUSE OF THE PROJECT DEPENDENCIES WITH ALL THAT OTHER STUFF!

What are you even arguing here? "I want a perfect railroad tomorrow morning. If you can't build it for tomorrow morning, tear it all the hell up and take your ball home!" Will you listen to what diametrically opposed things are coming out of your own mouth before you start blaming other people for things not being perfect yesterday. Getting rid of service does nothing to advance a long-term goal of increasing service. It merely gets rid of the service and ensures it never comes back again. Pick a lane and drive in it about what you want, bud.

So you're saying they should run empty trains to preserve slots that may be used in the future, but are only really useful if they can get more slots anyways. That makes ZERO logical sense.

So does your argument that getting rid of the train gets you your perfect railroad sooner. THINK. THINK it through before you post this drivel.

Well, look back. The busway boondoggle. Not having electrics for SLE in 1999/2000 when Amtrak electrified the Shore Line. Not electrifying the sidings needed to run SLE. And now we have New Haven Line equipment being forced down the throat of SLE, even though it makes no sense east of New Haven, Madison Station rebuilt without bi-directional platforms, it just goes on and on.

What did I just say in the last post? AMTRAK runs the Shoreline. CDOT is the subservient partner. They can doodle however they want with Madison or the stops Amtrak doesn't use. But nobody says a damn thing about service expansion on Amtrak's tracks or plans renovations to Amtrak stations until Amtrak gives sign-off and says it's OK to go public with plans. And Amtrak does 100% of the track work from New Haven to Boston. No electrified sidings go in until Amtrak gives permission. No modifications get done to Amtrak stations until Amtrak gets its full input. And Amtrak does not give permission for that unless it fits perfectly with their priorities on the corridor. The CT River Bridge replacement is Priority #1 on the Shoreline. Everything comes in second to that. This is not CDOT's operation to screw up like the Busway. They have partners here, and those partners are traditionally tight-lipped about jumping the gun on things. Which is why you cannot assume that nothing is going on in the background. A whole freaking lot can be going on in the background about NLN, about SLE expansion. And nobody is going to comment on it because Amtrak has to lobby first for the last bit of funding for the CT River Bridge and will preempt any other distractions from CDOT public leaks. And that is for their own good.

This is not CDOT's game to lose. There are many partners they have to work with to get things done here. And if you're one to take a dim view of CDOT's overall competence...I'm not sure why you'd think it a bad thing that they have to exercise some self-restraint around this one while the federal grown-ups take care of required business.

Metropark too is another great example of a full high on a curve.

Metropark is considered straight track when compared to new London ct

http://www.bing.com/maps/#Y3A9cXdzM2R5O ... VjdGljdXQ=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

zoom in and hit bird eye view at top of map

DutchRailnut wrote:Metropark is considered straight track when compared to new London ct

http://www.bing.com/maps/#Y3A9cXdzM2R5O ... VjdGljdXQ=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

zoom in and hit bird eye view at top of map

When I get to my computer I will have a look. Thank you Dutch.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:Or...if the gap is a little iffy they can outfit bridge plates the crew can work. As a terminal stop where the train is going to be laying over a few extra minutes on-platform before heading back inbound or pulling away from the platform onto a siding, the extra minute or two for the crew to snap the bridge plate into place on the front door of the first 3 cars is negligible for the passenger load out there.

Couldn't you have given me this A to my Q in the M-8 thread? But alas great minds!

Topic re-railed "CD" minimized, I hope. Pretty soon there'll be no sign left of our CTRRC Facebook page troll.

But please, do me a favor; report, do not respond. Terminal Proceed and I (now that I'm back on my feet) can handle that much.

Drove by a couple of the stations today. Westbrook looks practically finished - the building and parking lots look done, landscaping is even done. Unsurprisingly, a carbon copy of Guilford save for both platforms being the 200-foot length. Looks like they could just about flip the platform edges down and be ready to go. Perhaps they are waiting for the new Amtrak schedules (January) to adjust the schedules for opening.

Branford has definite work going on. Lots of dirt has been moved around, and the sonotube bases for the platform are in place. Some start on the elevator placement as well. It'll be interesting to see how they integrate the bridge with the existing station - this is the test case for Madison and Clinton.

I'll try to have pictures up within a few days.

Photos from December 28th. Attribution-sharealike license as usual.

Looks very nice! Great pics!

A glance at the 01/02/14 SLE Timetable Shows times at Westbrook station, when was the 1st day of service at the
new station??

Westbrook opened with the rest of the line in 1990 - everything was low asphalt or wood platforms then save for New Haven (and the west-of-NH stations added to SLE in 2001). Since then, everything else has been raised - New London in 2000; Old Saybrook in 2001; Clinton, Branford, then Guilford in 2005; and Madison in 2008. Westbrook got left out of the original batch because of various issues - environmental stuff with the river just to the side, cost issues associated with getting the acreage, and questions of whether it was really a viable station.

Given a few more years to prove itself,Westbrook's done okay. It's way outgrown the original 40-space lot; the new station is getting a 200-space lot. CDOT land-swapped the town for their garage site for the parking lot; that started in 2004 and finished in 2011. All the original station sites were in terrible sites for real expansion; Old Saybrook is pretty much maxed out on parking in that shopping center (though CDOT is bidding on an expansion contract this year), and Clinton is crammed into a tiny downtown. So Westbrook has a lot of potential to be a catch-all park and ride for just about everywhere east of Madison.

Westbrook's only the second SLE-station to get high-levels on both tracks. Guilford was an obvious choice - it's the biggest ridership draw between OSB and NHV. But Westbrook getting two platforms is a sign that Amtrak's getting very antsy about getting everything double-sided. Madison, Clinton and Branford are going to be difficult to do - Madison and Branford with wetlands, and Clinton due to lack of space. Branford's under way, but Madison and Clinton aren't even on CDOT's list of projects to be advertised this year.

But no, passengers are still boarding on the temporary wooden platform at Westbrook. That was built in 2012 when the 1990 platform was torn up for construction. The new station looks just about ready, but I don't think that anyone's using it yet. No announcement on the website, and if you look at the schedule, you'll see that a lot of trains operate express except for Guilford. When Westbrook has two platforms, it will be able to serve trains on the northern track without them having to cross over (passengers crossing tracks has been forbidden since the Acela started service), and those expresses will stop there as well.

I can't tell - in the last picture, it looks as if CDOT did the same thing as in West Haven and made the parking lot level with the high platform. If so, good on them, I used WH a couple of times lately and that little detail made the process so much nicer.