• Sen. Casey urges slower speeds for high-speed rail contracts

  • General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.
General discussion of passenger rail systems not otherwise covered in the specific forums in this category, including high speed rail.

Moderators: mtuandrew, gprimr1

  by MEC407
 
From GoErie.com:
GoErie.com wrote:U.S. Sen. Bob Casey is urging a federal agency to slow it down when it comes to speed requirements for companies bidding to build high-speed rail locomotives.

Casey's office said a lower minimum speed -- from 125 mph to 110 mph -- would allow most U.S. companies, including GE Transportation, to bid on contracts that otherwise might go to foreign companies.

Casey, D-Pa., urged the lower-speed contract parameters in a letter to U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Most American companies do not yet build a 125-mph locomotive.
Read more at: http://www.goerie.com/article/20111210/ ... -contracts
  by DutchRailnut
 
125 is not high speed.
  by MEC407
 
By European and Asian standards it certainly isn't, but in the U.S. it's unquestionably higher speed than the majority of passenger rail lines / routes currently in operation. That doesn't mean we should settle for 110 (or even 125); it's simply a matter of different countries/continents having different definitions of what "high speed" means. It's a very vague term and is open to many different interpretations.

A few years ago there was a news article that discussed the possibility of high speed rail from Boston to Montreal, and the article stated that USDOT's definition of "high speed rail" was 90 MPH or higher. Was that correct, and is that still the case?
  by george matthews
 
MEC407 wrote:From GoErie.com:
GoErie.com wrote:U.S. Sen. Bob Casey is urging a federal agency to slow it down when it comes to speed requirements for companies bidding to build high-speed rail locomotives.

Casey's office said a lower minimum speed -- from 125 mph to 110 mph -- would allow most U.S. companies, including GE Transportation, to bid on contracts that otherwise might go to foreign companies.

Casey, D-Pa., urged the lower-speed contract parameters in a letter to U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Most American companies do not yet build a 125-mph locomotive.
Read more at: http://www.goerie.com/article/20111210/ ... -contracts
Does he think the US industry is not capable of building proper high speed trains? That's very pessimistic of him, and means that he has decided that the decline of the US economy can't be reversed.

Protection of this kind always results in decline, at least in the long run.
  by RickRackstop
 
George Matthews;
In this country we colonial hillbillies use something called an airplane if we are in a hurry and traveling long distances other wise we drive. This is a government contract already being manipulated by politicians for a crappy order of 33 locomotives of which the only thing that can be derived from that catalogued locomotives is the diesel and generator. 125 mph, even 110 mph outside of the NEC which is electrified, is wishful thinking on their part. They can't run faster on freight lines because of signals and track maintenance cost that the host railroad will demand that AMTRAK pay for. And remember that dealing with politicians is like playing cards with someone who keeps changing the rules so that you always lose. GE / MPI order for new locomotives is designed for this high speed as they are intended to run on the far end of the AMTRAK owned NEC south of Boston so they have a head start.
  by Desertdweller
 
Even if we disregard for the moment the cost of HSR, it still would not be able to compete with airlines on distances farther than 200-250 miles. This is because on longer distances, there is not a time savings over air. The equalizer on shorter routes is the commute time downtown to downtown, and delays (TSA) at the airport.

Thus, a 150mph train is not competitive with air, and neither is a 200mph one. Consider than even the smaller airliners fly at 300-350mph and large ones almost twice that.

Rail, even long distance rail, beats both air and car in two areas: cost (vs. a single-occupancy vehicle) and comfort. Considering the long distances involved, speed increases for long-haul passenger trains in this country would not gain market share.

Much more important than speed on long distance trains is dependable, on-time performance.

Les
  by 2nd trick op
 
Couple of clarifications.

Sen Casey is very much an embodiment of his home state. He grew up in Scranton, a community with a strong tradition of the "old politics" depicted in the writing of Flannery O'Connor and James Farrell. But Senator Casey is NOT the man who served as the state's Governor 1986-1994; that was his late father.

As we've pointed out before, Pennsylvania is very conservative socially, but with a couple of exceptions like the Poconos, not conditioned toward further movement toward an open economy (It is likely the largest state with a public-sector liquor monopoly, due mostly to entrenched public-employee union opposition). The northeast quadrant of the state, when combined with Pittsburgh, provides enough population to balance out against Greater Philadelphia when state issues and funding are addressed via the legislative process. Former Governor Rendell was a former Philadelphia mayor, a role guaranteed to alienate elderly "coal crackers" who still occasionally receive phony Philadelphia traffic tickets in the mail.

But until about thirty years ago, Philadelphia was the hub of an "expanded" SEPTA which operated "commuter" trains as far into the hinterlands as Allentown, Reading, and even Pottsville. Scranton lost its passenger service in 1970, Wilkes-Barre and Hazleton in 1961, and the above two cites, along with the Lehigh Valley, do about as much business with New York as with Philadelphia. Lou Barletta, the first non-Democratic congressaman from the Anthracite region since the 1950's, is a native of Hazleton, and quickly shot down a "pipe-dream" of restoring passnger service to his home city, citing quite practical physical obstacles.

But over time, I expect the arguments for restoring some form of rail passnger service to Eastern Pennsylvania to gain momentum. NJT is instituting service as close as Andover, whch should encourage some Pocono-region commuters to park-and ride. The problem is one of getting Pennsylvania and New Jersey to identify a common goal, and to define a common approach.

Apparently, Senator Casey, or someone among his staff, has enough exposure to the limitations of both technology and realpolitik to understand the difference between the HSR fantasy of 2009 now in its death throes, and the possibility of redeveloping a service which is likely to become more appreciated as the new energy realities finally hit home.
  by MEC407
 
hi55us wrote:I wonder if Sen. Casey realizes that GE manufactures its locomotives in Brazil...
Some of their locomotives, specifically the ones being ordered by Brazilian railroads and other railroads in that region, are built in Brazil. The vast majority of their locomotives, including the ones destined for the U.S. and Canada, are still built in Erie, PA.
  by SouthernRailway
 
george matthews wrote:
MEC407 wrote:From GoErie.com:
GoErie.com wrote:U.S. Sen. Bob Casey is urging a federal agency to slow it down when it comes to speed requirements for companies bidding to build high-speed rail locomotives.

Casey's office said a lower minimum speed -- from 125 mph to 110 mph -- would allow most U.S. companies, including GE Transportation, to bid on contracts that otherwise might go to foreign companies.

Casey, D-Pa., urged the lower-speed contract parameters in a letter to U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. Most American companies do not yet build a 125-mph locomotive.
Read more at: http://www.goerie.com/article/20111210/ ... -contracts
Does he think the US industry is not capable of building proper high speed trains? That's very pessimistic of him, and means that he has decided that the decline of the US economy can't be reversed.

Protection of this kind always results in decline, at least in the long run.
I agree with you 100%. Why not find ways for private industry to build 125-mph locomotives--which would enable domestic manufacturers to provide great products for both domestic and foreign markets? Doesn't the US already sell freight locomotives abroad?
  by MEC407
 
SouthernRailway wrote:Doesn't the US already sell freight locomotives abroad?
Yes, in fact freight locomotives are one of the very few things that are actually built in America and sold worldwide. America hasn't built a TV or a stereo or an air conditioner in many years, but by-God we still build freight locomotives!
  by David Benton
 
locomotives that last 30 years or more , so are we saying we cant see any 125 mph running in the next 30 years ??? .
over 120 mph a single diesel locomotive isnt viable weight wise , but again if were looking hsr , we talking fast turnarounds which means a loco each end of the trainset . desirable safety wise too . as i said in the amtrak forum , british rail did it over 30 years ago for the hst125 , its hardly rocket science .
  by David Benton
 
MEC407 wrote:
SouthernRailway wrote:Doesn't the US already sell freight locomotives abroad?
Yes, in fact freight locomotives are one of the very few things that are actually built in America and sold worldwide. America hasn't built a TV or a stereo or an air conditioner in many years, but by-God we still build freight locomotives!
deep cycle batteries are another area america leads in , other diesel engines , rv parts , rv's , etc , probably alot more things than you think , just not much in the light consumer line .
  by george matthews
 
I agree with you 100%. Why not find ways for private industry to build 125-mph locomotives--which would enable domestic manufacturers to provide great products for both domestic and foreign markets? Doesn't the US already sell freight locomotives abroad?
There are hundreds of GM Class 66 locomotives in Britain, and also in the rest of Europe.
  by RickRackstop
 
The arbitrary speed limit for nose hung traction motors is 110 mph because half the weight is "unsprung weight" riding directly on the axle. This causes heavy wear on the rails at this speed and the solution to going faster is to use quill drive motors as used in all the electric locomotives all of which use imported motors. All the passenger locomotives in this country with the possible exception of the LIRR DE/DM locomotives use this off the shelf item so its no problem getting replacements. The LIRR neglected to stock spare parts on this now obsolete Siemens motor and EMD doesn't either so if one fails they have a major problem. EMD is ahead in this game in that the EMD/Vossloh passenger locomotive in Europe is already rated at 200 kph (approx. 125 mph) so they can either buy the trucks with motors or build them under license. Of course Vossloh could sell them to GE or MPI I suppose. There is also the danger that nobody will bid on this contract because of the design problems involved.

The 125 mph requirement presents an interesting engineering challenge sort of like designing a light weight, high speed steam roller. The first thing is the requirement for HEP of 1000 KW ( about 1300 hp) from the prime mover alone. The roughly equivalent NJ transit dual power locomotive built in Germany had to be transported from the plant to the shipping port by a special highway trailer because it was too heavy for the German railway system. So it might require up to a 6000 hp diesel and even with a light weight bridge truss frame it will be too heavy for 4 axles. Its going to interesting to see how this develops.