Request For Expression Interest for Lease of Passenger Car Coach

Is there anything out there that would meet the requirements?

https://www.masstransitmag.com/transit- ... -car-coach

Are the MARC IIs at large? Does SLE have a surplus of Mafersas after the M8's introduction?

MBTA MBBs and Comets at SEPTA, the latter once new CRRCs arrive?

AMT has some single level Comets as well, but low door only.

EH - Note the revised title text I used..."Request of Interest for Lease of Passenger Coaches"

Thanks to CR46's MT link I now understand that the LIRR is seeking to lease a group of coaches
in time for Summer 2024 seasonal ridership needs...The most practical would be the MARC Two
single level cars that the LIRR leased back in 2017 which were primarily used on the Port Jefferson
Branch during the warmer months that year - they are proven compatible with the DE/DM 30s...

The Mafersa cars are needed by CTRail for the added Hartford-Springfield service and have a problem
that would have to be corrected if they were made available to the LIRR - the vestibule steps do not
clear third rail which is why they could not operate into GCT and stayed in intrastate CT service...

I thought of the 44 SEPTA CRRC cars - but in a VERY different manner: If they DO get built (there are
only TWO known completed cars in China) would be for the LIRR to lease the ENTIRE group of 44 cars
from SEPTA with an option to purchase outright if they are deemed successful in LIRR service...

This will depend IF and WHEN they finally get built - this ill-advised order was placed before the 2020
Pandemic which hit SEPTA RRD ridership very hard - and to this day is still struggling to reach about 70
percent of 2019 ridership...SEPTA's problem is a looming "Fiscal Cliff" - service cuts along with major
fare increases will only cause ridership to further decline...Leasing or selling the 44 CRRC cars to the
LIRR would be one way of getting out of a serious money drain for SEPTA RRD...

Their dimensions - especially height if they run to Penn Station - would be one of the most important
factors for the LIRR to consider towards leasing the SEPTA CRRC cars...SEPTA RRD currently has enough
equipment to run all scheduled RRD services - the big question will be how the aging Silverliner Four MU
cars hold up entering their fifth decade of service (built 1974-75-76) for SEPTA RRD...There are CRRC
car and SEPTA RRD equipment topics available in the SEPTA Forum Archives for more insight...

The MBTA Messerschmidt cars - and other single level cars can be something that the LIRR looks at...
MBTA and MARC's Kawasaki bilevel cars can not be considered since they are both a full foot taller
than the LIRR C3 cars - and will not fit under the catenary wire inside the tunnels to Penn Station...

AMT/EXO single level equipment can be modified for LIRR use - converting lease cars for high-level
platform use would make this a more expensive - but doable - proposition...I can see this being an
option only if there are no other more readily-compatible cars available second hand...and if the
LIRR ends up purchasing them...

Could any NJT equipment end up in consideration for a short-term Summer 2024 lease? Example
could be 26 multilevel cars which would be most likely compatible with the DE/DM 30 units and
already meet the clearance and capacity requirements to be used in LIRR Penn Station service...
They would have to be marked on the outside in some manner for a LIRR lease so passengers
do not get them confused with actual NJT trains in Penn Station...

In closing we shall see what equipment the LIRR can lease to supplement the C3 fleet during the
prime East End seasonal tourist season this coming Summer of 2024...Thoughts from MACTRAXX

R36 Combine Coach wrote:MBTA MBBs and Comets at SEPTA, the latter once new CRRCs arrive?

AMT has some single level Comets as well, but low door only.

Idk if the MBTA can part with any of the MBBs just yet. With South Coast Rail due to open some time this year they’ll need all the equipment they have on hand. It wouldn’t surprise me that the M8s being rolled out on SLE only finally happened (after how many years of delays) due to the 3 year lease extension on the MBBs coming to an end and they didn’t want to get caught off guard like they did in late 2017/early 2018 when ConnDOT was scrambling for anything to run on the Hartford Line. Maybe there was a clause that stated the T could reclaim the coaches at anytime if they desperately needed them?

I could *possibly* see the SEPTA cars being leased as there are 35 of them altogether (end door and center door combined) and as noted above SEPTA’s ridership is still struggling to climb back. However, the Comets are newer than the Silverliner IVs so idk how good of a PR look that would be to send the not-so-oldest cars out of state even if just for the summer.

I guess the MARC cars will be making the rounds again on the LIRR. It’ll be interesting to see if they get deployed exclusively on the Montauk Branch and the KO-Greenport shuttles. The lack of adequate overhead luggage space on the C-3 cars has made for some terribly overcrowded trains (ironically caused by the luggage, not the passengers!).

Perhaps the LIRR is seriously considering piggybacking on the ConnDOT Adessia order and wants to evaluate the overall merits of bilevel vs single level cars one last time before making a decision.

NH and Everyone - I searched for and found the past topic that covered the 2017 MARC car lease to the LIRR:
lirr-seeks-to-lease-8-21-marc-coaches-f ... 65423.html
(14 pages - 199 posts - May 19, 2017 to May 25, 2019)
The regular 2017 assignment for the MARC cars were Hunterspoint Avenue-Port Jefferson trains 613 west
in the AM Peak and 664 east during the PM Peak on weekdays which ran:
#613 - Leave Port Jefferson 6:57 AM; All stops to Huntington 7:45 AM; Hicksville 8:00 AM; Mineola 8:07 AM
Arrive Jamaica 8:21 AM-Leave Jamaica 8:25 AM - Arrive Hunterspoint Avenue 8:43 AM.
#664 - Leave Hunterspoint Avenue 5:47 PM; Arrive Jamaica 6:04 PM-Leave Jamaica 6:07 PM
First stop Huntington 6:45 PM then all stops to Port Jefferson 7:30 PM.

Keep in mind there have been major schedule changes that include different train numbers since
full Grand Central service began almost one year ago (February 27, 2023)

Reasons mentioned in the MARC car lease topic why these cars were not run to Montauk was that they
had a total passenger capacity that was lower than the C3 cars - and to keep them on a regular run or
runs on a single branch - in this case the Port Jefferson Branch...

NH - The C3 cars have luggage storage space underneath almost ALL seats - these cars were built with
seats that are mounted "cantilever" horizontally into the side wall opening up floor space below...
I have shown other riders this storage option at least a few times...I've used it myself...

I always ride in the upper deck - and there is a way to look down the length of the car from the staircase
and see the "legs" in occupied seats - I recall that a train crew member pointed this out to me back in
the early days of their operation and I remember to look as I board to find an unoccupied seat...

Some C3 cars have square luggage "cubbyholes" on the ends between the quarter point side doors and
the end doors - some riders either are unaware of this extra capacity or are reluctant to leave luggage
away from where they are seated out of their sight...On busy trains this space is sometimes heavily used...

If the LIRR leases outside equipment it will most likely be used on regular assignments on a single branch
(Port Jefferson is again most likely) or secondary (Oyster Bay) services enough to free up as many C3 cars
as possible - and not push the C3 fleet to their maximum limits with almost no spare cars available...

The exception would be NJT multilevels - which rival the C3 cars in passenger capacity.
SEPTA is NOT going to lease any P/P cars with the predicament that they are in now with their fleet...
SEPTA CRRC cars would be a good fit - but at this point no one knows exactly when or if they will be
built let alone a delivery timeline that would get them to Long Island four months from now...
I would not at all be surprised if this car order gets cancelled outright and SEPTA seeks legal action
against CRRC to recover procurement money spent and other damages...

In closing let's see what equipment is made available for lease to the LIRR this year...MACTRAXX

Again we see the failure of the railroad to aim towards the future with the C3 acquisition and the number of cars they brought on board in the late 90's.

Of the options mentioned above, I think the MARC cars are the most likely as we've already seen that and institutional familiarity is important. I would love to see some of the NJT MultiLevels tested on the system because I personally think LIRR should be ordering these. They already fit in Penn, so the third rail clearance is solved, and they seat similar capacity to the C3's. I highly doubt we'd see a Kawasaki C5 order ever made.

If I recall correctly, the C3 designs no longer meets updated safety requirements changed since the mid 1990s, thus would need to be redesigned in the ends of the cars.

With the cost of a new car today and the NJT style MLV on the market the C3s will remain an orphan fleet. The ship set sail
Over 20yrs ago to an additional supplement order to be placed.
The bean counters were too blind to see it.
However, the lesson was learned and LIRR is now looking to go off the shelf as the crooks of the 1990s have since retired.
The C3 fleet is a direct example of the results of major decisions being made by those promoted to such positions w/o the proper knowledge and expertise.
There was so many mistakes made here that a book should be published about it.

Hopefully LIRR buys what they’re currently looking at 20 cars like the MNR coaches.

WE and Everyone: I will add that there are Bombardier multilevel cars in service for MARC
and AMT/EXO (Montreal) that could be considered or at least looked at for a LIRR Summer 2024 lease...

The AMT/EXO ML car type has low-level platform only vestibule end doors which may have to be modified
for LIRR lease service and for that matter they may not actually be an option here - with other single level
cars in the AMT/EXO fleet that may be surplus with new bi-level cars entering service...

WE - I do agree - The LIRR C3 cars are the legacy of former LIRR President Tom Prendergast
that the LIRR must live with for the foreseeable future along with the DE/DM30 diesel units...

There is now Siemens Charger dual-mode locomotives beginning to be built for MNCR -
The LIRR and Amtrak SC delivery timeline should be over the next three to five years...

In closing let's see what the LIRR ends up with for a Summer 2024 car lease...MACTRAXX

Actually, the C3's are the legacy of the late Charles Hoppe who delayed their purchase with profound statements about spending money (most of it grants, safe harbor, etc.) on new equipment for "only" 20% of the ridership.

The C1's were part of the "compromise" not to electrify to Pt. Jefferson and were the doing of Congressman Robert Mrazek.

When the MARC coaches were here, Newsday published an article on how most riders despised them.

I can think of six coaches on a siding in Eastern Suffolk that could be rehabbed for service...........

4/2: Thanks for the correction - The C3 cars were designed and the order was placed with Kawasaki as the
bidder during LIRR President Charles Hoppe's term...The C3 cars were built and delivered and then placed
into service after Tom Prendergast became LIRR President...

I remember that Representative Bob Mrazek was influential in securing funding for the 10 C1 cars that were
built by the Tokyu Car Company of Japan as mentioned - those prototypes cost the MTA $3,300,000 each or
$33 million dollars for the 10 car train. With this thought in mind I looked at what these 10 cars would have
cost today: $1 in 1990 is the equivalent of $2.36 today (2024) with the inflation over 34 years 136 percent...
$3.3 million dollars 1990 equals $7,787,116 and 30 cents today (2024)
$33 million dollars 1990 equals $77 million,871,162 dollars and 97 cents (2024)
(Source: Consumer Price Index US Dollar Inflation Calculator)

I never saw any figures for what the locomotives cost - especially the three rebuilt FL9s - used for this service.
Before the FL9s there were the two leased Metra E units briefly in 1991 and the two GP38 units that had to be
modified with MU couplers on one end - and the #3100 homebuilt power unit for the C1 coaches...

I could not understand myself what PJ Branch riders found wrong with the MARC cars...They date from the
middle 1980s and are the same age as M3 MU cars are with similar seating and lavatories available...

Amtrak regularly leased MARC cars during heavy travel periods such as the Thanksgiving holiday running
them between Washington and New York (I rode them on the Sunday after Thanksgiving 2000 and found
them to be very adequate in service) in Holiday Special service...

If you are thinking of the RMLI and Twin Forks Chapter NRHS cars in Riverhead they are going to need an
overhaul and a bit of interior work to be roadworthy let alone be put back in LIRR service...For those that
may be unaware the last of the old LIRR car fleet was retired back in the Summer of 2000 - almost 24 years
ago as of now...The interior renovations are themselves about 40 years old (middle 1980s) as example...

Let's see what passenger equipment is offered for the LIRR to lease this year with the request submitted...
MACTRAXX

To be fair, re: comfort, I think it's at the point where they're anticipating such a big crush over the summer that it's having no coaches vs shitty coaches. I do agree that as time goes on the mistake of not purchasing additional C3s gets more and more visible.

The better question is: when will solicitation start to builders (RFP) to replace C3, DE/DM equipment? Now over twenty-five years old their days are growing short with out a mid life "rebuild".

And the E15's (MP15's) are now approaching their forty-eighth year of service with no replacement in sight.

This thread brings back memories of the early 1980's: Flipping through Polaroid photos of 1940's lightweight railcars for sale with CMO trying to figure out which junk could get us through the parlor car season. Some of those wrecks cost the Long Island more for delivery than the cost of the car.

The cars were bought sight unseen, based on a couple of photos and the word of the mechanics from the railroads that were offing the junk.

But Morris Park could fix anything. Before summer the fleet was somewhat expanded, and served the east end elete rather well.

K&K: I believe that you are referring to the late 1960s/early 1970s era when passenger railroads were
discontinuing service and surplus cars were available at reasonable - or even scrap - prices...
The cars from varied railroads such as the Kansas City Southern made those years quite interesting...
Some of the photographs that you mention may have ended up in the RMLI vintage picture collection...

The LIRR Morris Park Shops had the reputation of being able to handle any aspect of car overhaul and
rebuilding - those employees were proud of the quality work that they performed for the LIRR...

4/2: The C3 car fleet as mentioned is entering their "mid-life overhaul" years...With nothing currently
as a significant back-up even rebuilding these cars at a rate of only one car at a time may create a fleet
problem unless it is only performed outside the Summer season...

Outside cars in either a long term lease or purchased outright may allow the LIRR the option to take C3
cars out of service to be overhauled in groups to be determined over less time...The thought should be
15 to 20 more years of service similar to what the older fleet rebuild back in the middle 1980s was...

It is hard to believe that the MP15 (and NYA GP38) units are in their late 40s agewise remembering when
they were new back in 1976 to 1979 specifically...I remember mentioning to a fellow LIST member that I
thought the MP15 units should be rebuilt along with the exterior sandblasted and any metal work that
is needed - applying a new LIRR color scheme with the finished process...

Would any outside end cab switcher type or midsize road units be available to the LIRR to replace the
remaining MP15s if necessary on the used locomotive market? MACTRAXX