• Reasonable Long Term Hopes

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

  by CComMack
 
Suburban Station wrote:why so many stations? that has to be bloating the project cost
Not really. Even after they finish the Cutoff, buses will still own the City of Scranton-NYC market; the NYC supercommuters who'll take the train at peak hours mostly live east of Scranton. Scranton is just a convenient terminal, and allows for a commute peak in the westbound direction.

It's unfair to say that NJ Transit has been paying more attention to the Cutoff than PA, except maybe by default. NJT retains an in-house rail construction unit, whose MO has been to work on the Cutoff when they have nothing better to do. Ever since Sandy, that hasn't been much.
  by NorthPennLimited
 
25Hz wrote:Why not contract NH&IRR to do once-per-two-hours trips to/from warminster & new hope?

And, what about another partnership with PN for service between landsdale & quakertown?

Just grab some simple HEP diesels from MP or wherever is cheapest, refurb those comet 3's and boom.

Dunno how much it'd cost to do that, but it seems more realistic as a bridge to SEPTA running the service?

I have talked to many at NH&I and they seemed open to the idea......
As ridiculous as this sounds....and assuming neither PN or NHRR don't need to do ANY track work to satisfy the FRA and STB to change their charter to a freight-only common carrier:

$300k for a used F40-ph X 2 locomotives = $600k
$150k for a used coach X 6 coaches = $900k
$225k for a cab car (best guess, don't see any on the after market) = $450k

......So now we are up to nearly 2 million bucks. And this equipment is sold as-is. No telling what is needed to make the equipment pass a 92 day MI inspection, or a 3 year air brake inspection. Then you need to fix all the HVAC and door interlock systems on your coaches, prime mover upgrades and PTC systems for your used locomotives, additional liability insurance.... But for the sake of this exercise, none of that is needed.

Total fictional startup cost for just the equipment is 2 million ( let's round-up for shipping and handling ).

Now, let's say this short line business plan is to recoup their startup investment cost in commuter rail within 5 years.

They run 4 trips in the morning, 4 trips in the PM, no nights or weekends to keep fuel and labor costs down. Each train has the capacity to hold 400 passengers, but realistically, let's say 200 passengers per trip (even 200 is fantasy). That's 1600 passenger trips per day, 8,000 per week, times 50 weeks (everybody takes a 2 weeks off per year for vacation / holidays) that's 400,000 passenger rides per year.

If we plan to recoup initial investment startup, we have to payback $400,000 per year to our investors (they loaned us the money for free), so ticket prices start at $1.50 round trip to break even.

Now we need labor (2 regular crews and 1 extra board crew) Since they are non union, let's say they earn 65k each, plus health benefits at 15k each. That's $3 per round trip ticket.

Now we need fuel. That 645e prime mover burns 10 gallons per hour at idle, 200 gallons per hour in the 8th notch. Let's say they run 8 hours per day, idle for 16 hours per day plus 48 hours idle time on weekends. That's 128 weekly hours of idle time, 40 hours of run time: That's 9280 gallons per week, 37120 gallons per month X 2 locomotives = 74240 gallons X $3.50 per gallon = $260k per month for fuel costs.

That's $8.00 per round trip ticket

And we haven't considered trackage rights, stations, business administration costs, profit margins, etc. This was just a bare bones expense exercise.

If there was money in the commuter rail business, don't you think the big railroads would be getting a piece of the action?
  by Suburban Station
 
CComMack wrote:
Suburban Station wrote:why so many stations? that has to be bloating the project cost
Not really. Even after they finish the Cutoff, buses will still own the City of Scranton-NYC market; the NYC supercommuters who'll take the train at peak hours mostly live east of Scranton. Scranton is just a convenient terminal, and allows for a commute peak in the westbound direction.

It's unfair to say that NJ Transit has been paying more attention to the Cutoff than PA, except maybe by default. NJT retains an in-house rail construction unit, whose MO has been to work on the Cutoff when they have nothing better to do. Ever since Sandy, that hasn't been much.
nothing you said supports your claim that too many stations arent bloating the project cost. in all likelihood they are. i cant imagine why anyome would support a line that didnt go to scranton. reduce the number of stops...these supercommuters can drive to a station. the whole point of the line would be to revive scranton
  by 25Hz
 
NorthPennLimited wrote:
25Hz wrote:Why not contract NH&IRR to do once-per-two-hours trips to/from warminster & new hope?

And, what about another partnership with PN for service between landsdale & quakertown?

Just grab some simple HEP diesels from MP or wherever is cheapest, refurb those comet 3's and boom.

Dunno how much it'd cost to do that, but it seems more realistic as a bridge to SEPTA running the service?

I have talked to many at NH&I and they seemed open to the idea......
As ridiculous as this sounds....and assuming neither PN or NHRR don't need to do ANY track work to satisfy the FRA and STB to change their charter to a freight-only common carrier:

$300k for a used F40-ph X 2 locomotives = $600k
$150k for a used coach X 6 coaches = $900k
$225k for a cab car (best guess, don't see any on the after market) = $450k

......So now we are up to nearly 2 million bucks. And this equipment is sold as-is. No telling what is needed to make the equipment pass a 92 day MI inspection, or a 3 year air brake inspection. Then you need to fix all the HVAC and door interlock systems on your coaches, prime mover upgrades and PTC systems for your used locomotives, additional liability insurance.... But for the sake of this exercise, none of that is needed.

Total fictional startup cost for just the equipment is 2 million ( let's round-up for shipping and handling ).

Now, let's say this short line business plan is to recoup their startup investment cost in commuter rail within 5 years.

They run 4 trips in the morning, 4 trips in the PM, no nights or weekends to keep fuel and labor costs down. Each train has the capacity to hold 400 passengers, but realistically, let's say 200 passengers per trip (even 200 is fantasy). That's 1600 passenger trips per day, 8,000 per week, times 50 weeks (everybody takes a 2 weeks off per year for vacation / holidays) that's 400,000 passenger rides per year.

If we plan to recoup initial investment startup, we have to payback $400,000 per year to our investors (they loaned us the money for free), so ticket prices start at $1.50 round trip to break even.

Now we need labor (2 regular crews and 1 extra board crew) Since they are non union, let's say they earn 65k each, plus health benefits at 15k each. That's $3 per round trip ticket.

Now we need fuel. That 645e prime mover burns 10 gallons per hour at idle, 200 gallons per hour in the 8th notch. Let's say they run 8 hours per day, idle for 16 hours per day plus 48 hours idle time on weekends. That's 128 weekly hours of idle time, 40 hours of run time: That's 9280 gallons per week, 37120 gallons per month X 2 locomotives = 74240 gallons X $3.50 per gallon = $260k per month for fuel costs.

That's $8.00 per round trip ticket

And we haven't considered trackage rights, stations, business administration costs, profit margins, etc. This was just a bare bones expense exercise.

If there was money in the commuter rail business, don't you think the big railroads would be getting a piece of the action?
I never said it was profitable, it'd be an operational contract, SEPTA pays for everything, NP and NH&IRR simply operate the trains with their employees. Both would likely need some track improvements, not sure bout the specifics. It's more realistic than anything i've seen from SEPTA (which is nothing).

Also, you open the possibility of charters from new hope to doylestown, which could be split 3 ways, one to historical districts/efforts, one to SEPTA, and one to the host railroad to cover the expense of the trip.
  by Patrick Boylan
 
25Hz, please explain why does contracting for regular rail service between Warminster and New Hope open the possibility of charters from new hope to doylestown? I know of nothing today that stops SEPTA from having either bus charters from New Hope to Doylestown, 11 miles, or train charters New Hope to Glenside to Lansdale to Doylestown, 46 miles.
  by NorthPennLimited
 
.....You don't seem to get it 25Hz

WHY would a short line take an operating contract to haul commuter trains, if all they are going to do is break even or loose money? It's like opening a lemonade stand on your front lawn, selling the lemonade at 50 cents per glass, when it costs 50 cents per glass to produce.

How do you think the unions are going to react when SEPTA gives work away to a non-union contractor?
  by bikentransit
 
Aren't NHRR employees union? Regardless, if it's a needed service, make it happen. The costs seem reasonable, and the government is certainly good at spending those amounts on much less fruitful things, so it would be good to get a dialogue going with the county to pressure them to assess things. It might behoove SEPTA to look at a simple extension to the other side of Street Road though. With Warminster beyond capacity, it's time to look at pushing service north.
  by 25Hz
 
NorthPennLimited wrote:.....You don't seem to get it 25Hz

WHY would a short line take an operating contract to haul commuter trains, if all they are going to do is break even or loose money? It's like opening a lemonade stand on your front lawn, selling the lemonade at 50 cents per glass, when it costs 50 cents per glass to produce.

How do you think the unions are going to react when SEPTA gives work away to a non-union contractor?
I get it lots. As i said, more realistic than the nothing we've seen so far from SEPTA.
Patrick Boylan wrote:25Hz, please explain why does contracting for regular rail service between Warminster and New Hope open the possibility of charters from new hope to doylestown? I know of nothing today that stops SEPTA from having either bus charters from New Hope to Doylestown, 11 miles, or train charters New Hope to Glenside to Lansdale to Doylestown, 46 miles.
Because right now, all you CAN have is charters, having the improved tracks for regular passenger service would make for a smoother ride, and a faster trip.

Again this is not meant to be some sound solid solution, it's just brainstorming, because again...... we've had NOTHING from 1234 market.

The other option is to electrify, which with tea party at the wheel in h-berg, will NOT happen.

How do you two propose we get to quakertown (or new hope, or newtown) without overhead power as an option, and without buying dual mode locomotives?
  by Clearfield
 
25Hz wrote:How do you two propose we get to quakertown (or new hope, or newtown) without overhead power as an option, and without buying dual mode locomotives?
That's easy.

When the Lansdale substation is rebuilt, it will be able to power the Quakertown line as far as its planned terminus at Pennridge.

Newtown and New Hope service restorations are just figments.
  by N.E.Pennsy
 
Clearfield wrote:New Hope service restorations are just figments.
Who actually owns the right of way north of Street Road. I had heard PECo?
  by trackwelder
 
new hope and ivyland rr
  by Suburban Station
 
the tea party is in harrisburg? on what planet is pileggi a tea party republican? please let me know because its not this one. it was democrats who almost blocked septas funding. this board is supposed to be free of poorly informed politics. the reality is we dont live in a low tax state but our state also doesnt value transit. nj has muchbetter transit funding but theyre bleeding jobs and people. septa has money but not so much they can make every railfans dreams come true. septa has better funding now than at any time in the last generation
  by bikentransit
 
Clearfield's attitude reflects the reason why things aren't getting done. That part of Bucks County is swimming in traffic, and investment in at least one of those lines would make a difference, and its not New Hope that needs it. Maybe if certain people stopped having figments of how things can't get done, the region would actually be making progress instead of farting money into the breeze.
  by CComMack
 
Suburban Station wrote:
CComMack wrote:
Suburban Station wrote:why so many stations? that has to be bloating the project cost
Not really. Even after they finish the Cutoff, buses will still own the City of Scranton-NYC market; the NYC supercommuters who'll take the train at peak hours mostly live east of Scranton. Scranton is just a convenient terminal, and allows for a commute peak in the westbound direction.

It's unfair to say that NJ Transit has been paying more attention to the Cutoff than PA, except maybe by default. NJT retains an in-house rail construction unit, whose MO has been to work on the Cutoff when they have nothing better to do. Ever since Sandy, that hasn't been much.
nothing you said supports your claim that too many stations arent bloating the project cost. in all likelihood they are. i cant imagine why anyome would support a line that didnt go to scranton. reduce the number of stops...these supercommuters can drive to a station. the whole point of the line would be to revive scranton
I'm sorry, apparently I was too obscure. The stations that will be generating the ridership for Cutoff service are the ones in the East Stroudsburg/Delaware Water Gap area. The low ridership projection stations are Andover, NJ (in the middle of nowhere and in the middle of a very long gap between stations; NJ will fight for it and rightly so) and Scranton itself. None of the intermediate stations are expendable because they attract more ridership than can be gained up the line by skipping them (again, possibly excepting Andover).

Anyway, bizarro fantasy empire building aside, NEPA is out of service area and off-topic. My apologies for derailing.
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