"Night Owl" service

I knew these copies of the original service agreements between Penn Central and the MTA would come in handy some day....

The service agreement for the New Haven Line was between PCTC, Connecticut Department of Transportation (acting by the Connecticut Transportation Authority) and the MTA, and took effect 01 January 1971.

The service agreement for the Harlem and Hudson Lines, between PCTC and the MTA, took effect on 01 June 1972.

Jim

Nester wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:A couple of issues with the previous post, the Penn Central was operating
service out of Grand Central under the direction of the MTA and the State
of Connecticut so the ultimate decision whether to or not to operate the
night owl service rested with New York and Connecticut.
The night owl trains did NOT operate with RDC equipoment, they operated
with MU equipment.
On the commuter railroad we are/were ENGINEERS not motormen.
I can recall cases where it actually increased crew costs by not running
all night service.
Noel Weaver

Penn Central came to be on 2/1/68. The MCTA (later renamed MTA) was authorized in 1965. Penn Central filed for bankruptcy in 1970. Did the MTA subsidize commuter operations between 2/68 and 1976, when Conrail took over?

Nester

Nester, I am doing this as best I can from memory. It seems to me that
the New Haven Line agreement was signed between Connecticut, New York and Penn Central maybe in 1971 while the H & H was signed a few
months later. Not positive at the moment as to the dates but am pretty
sure that the New Haven came first.
Noel Weaver

Noel,

You would know better than the rest of us, so now I've got to ask you please;

If the Owls were run with MU's, did that service terminate at the end of the third rail, or was there a connector? IF there was a connector, what was the equipment used?

How many MU cars to an Owl?

I could have sworn there were RDC's used, so I've got Old Timers Disease. Weren't RDC's anywhere in the mix?

Thanks!

Dieter.

The night owl trains ran only on the electrified portions of the Harlem and
the New Haven. There were none on the Hudson.
I do not recall just how many MU's they operated with, probably only used
two cars for passengers but the trains may well have had more for
equipment moves.
No RDC or diesel equipment was involved in the makeup of these trains
under normal circumstances.
Noel Weaver

In reading this thread tonight I got back to thinking about a conversation Otto and I had a few years back on the subject. In the PC Days, the Night Owl Service only operated in the Electric Zone, and with a $0.50 surcharge. The nihgt owl service served the more populated areas as follows (IF MEMORY SERVES CORRECTLY):

Hudson:
Local to CH, Riverdale First Stop (today would probably be Marble Hill or DV First) - NO Pok Service.
[skips all bronx stops, expect RVD]

Harlem:
Local to NWP, Fordham, Woodlawn, MVW, all to NWP.
[skips all small brox stops]

New Haven:
Local to STM, First Mt. Vernon, all to STM.
[or did the night owl's go to NHV??]

District D RTC wrote:In reading this thread tonight I got back to thinking about a conversation Otto and I had a few years back on the subject. In the PC Days, the Night Owl Service only operated in the Electric Zone, and with a $0.50 surcharge. The nihgt owl service served the more populated areas as follows (IF MEMORY SERVES CORRECTLY):

Hudson:
Local to CH, Riverdale First Stop (today would probably be Marble Hill or DV First) - NO Pok Service.
[skips all bronx stops, expect RVD]

Harlem:
Local to NWP, Fordham, Woodlawn, MVW, all to NWP.
[skips all small brox stops]

New Haven:
Local to STM, First Mt. Vernon, all to STM.
[or did the night owl's go to NHV??]

I checked timetable no. 3, dated January 10, 1972 with the G.O.'s in it and
here is what operated at that time:
Hudson: Outbound train 789 to Croton North at 1:21 AM and train 701 at
5:21 AM to Croton Harmon. Inbound: train no. 700 left Croton North at
1:05 AM and the next inbound train left there at 5:25 AM although there
was a deadhead train out of there at 3:45 AM. Train 701 had a PO
connection out of Croton Harmon at 6:18 AM with an RDC but it only
stopped at Peekskill, Beacon and Poughkeepsie.
On the Harlem outbound at: train 611 at 1:01 AM an all stops local to NWP
with an RDC connection for Brewster, train 501 at 2:01 AM making 125,
Fordham, Mt. Vernon and everything to NWP, train 681 at 3:00 AM making
"F" stops at Fordham, Mt. Vernon and everything to NWP, 685 at 5:00 AM
making the same stops as 681. Harlem, inbound: locals out of NWP at
1:16 AM, 3:00 AM, 4:00 AM and 5:16 AM generally making the stops that
the outbound trains above made except that the 5:16 AM train made
everything except 183rd Street. No connections from Brewster for any of
these trains.
On the New Haven outbound: the last New Haven train was at 12:36 AM
while there were locals to Stamford at 1:11 AM and 2:11 AM. After 2:11,
the next train out was at 4:41 AM and this train made most stops from
New York to Stamford then continued on to New Haven making some of the stops but not nearly all of them. Next train after that was at 5:41 AM
making just about everything from New York to New Haven. On the
inbound side there were no inbound trains out of Stamford after 11:52 PM until 5:07 AM the next morning (later on weekends). The 5:07 AM train
out of Stamford originated at New Haven as a deadhead/employee train
and would carry a good number of T & E people as well as other employees to drop at Stamford Yard. If an employee wanted to get picked up somewhere between New Haven and Stamford, all he/she had
to do was contact a tower to get word on the radio to the train to make
the stop and it would be done.
For some reason, the New Haven pages in the above timetable had no
reference to MU equipment but all of the trains that I mentioned above
were MU equipment. I ran all of them at one time or another.
When the New Haven Railroad still existed, there were more midnight hour trains in both directions as a lot of mail was carried at night.
I hope this will clear up the questions as to what was actually operated.
Noel Weaver

From the New York Times article yesterday about the MTA surplus, here is the second to last paragraph.

Any truth to this?

-------------------------

The authority announced that it would spend $2 million this year to begin an "intensive cleaning initiative" for subway stations, tracks and equipment; to add morning and early afternoon service on the Long Island Rail Road and late-night service on the Metro-North Railroad, and to improve rail and bus connections for Staten Island commuters.

--------------------------

Here's the entrie article, but please start a new thread if you want to discuss the surplus and reserve this thread for discussion of late night service!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/28/nyregion/28mta.html

I don't know where the Times got that from but I haven't even heard that in the rumor mill.

Otto Vondrak wrote:I would love it if the last train out of Grand Central was 3:20 am and not 1:20 am. If I am somewhere downtown, and I want to get back to GCT in time to catch the last train, I have to account for the lack of taxis, for infrequent late night subway schedules, and the like.

After reading this entire thread, I agree with Otto and all the others who say there's no reason NOT to have 24-hour service on Metro-North. Think about it... people who see a late stage show or movie often want to have a few drinks after and whatever have you. Or let's say there's one of those rare-but-possible night baseball games that runs into umpteen innings. With the lack of frequent and fast transportation to get to GCT late at night that Otto noted, I agree that it's a pain when you have to keep a close eye on the clock and perhaps cut your plans short just because the last train leaves relatively early for the nightlife crowd. Having been on that very last train once (missed the prior one by minutes -- at Marble Hill -- on a dangerously cold January 2005 night), I can also attest to its popularity.

Another poster (Dieter I think?) also reminded us that, yes, this is THE city that never sleeps! If all the other major mass transit services can run 24 hours a day, why not Metro North? Pick any hour of the day -- guaranteed, someone is either arriving at work or leaving work. Whether it's for work reasons, social reasons, or legitimate school reasons, there should be transportation at all times.

My "late night wish list" is as follows:

Hudson Line: Hourly service for the entire line. While the City of Poughkeepsie itself may not have a huge population, the surrounding communities on both sides of the river contribute enough population to warrant 24-hour service. Poughkeepsie and Beacon are especially important due to their proximity to Hudson River crossings.

Harlem Line: Hourly service for the electrified zone. Unlike the Hudson Line, most of the territory north of Southeast is still "in the sticks" as someone else put it, at least for the time being. I don't think it's necessary to run hourly Wassaic shuttles... maybe just one during the entire overnight period, if any at all. But expect this to change over next 10-15 years. People are beginning to discover the eastern side of Dutchess County... slowly but surely. I wouldn't be surprised if demand grows enough to require double-tracking the entire upper section of the line. Hard to predict when this day will come, but I think it will.

New Haven Line: Since New Haven is the largest "northern terminus" city on the system, there should definitely be hourly (or more) service in both directions on the mainline. Other than that, I'm not very familiar with this line, so I won't even pretend to have an opinion on how often overnight branch service should be offered.

pnaw10 wrote:Having been on that very last train once (missed the prior one by minutes -- at Marble Hill -- on a dangerously cold January 2005 night), I can also attest to its popularity.

I've been on the 1:20 to Poughkeepsie more than once, both on weeknights and weekends. That train "earns" its keep. I've also missed it once -- the wait (and price hike since the first weekday AM outbound is a peak train) forced me to consider other options (sleep under desk, crash at relatives, etc.)

pnaw10 wrote:My "late night wish list" is as follows:

Hudson Line: Hourly service for the entire line. While the City of Poughkeepsie itself may not have a huge population, the surrounding communities on both sides of the river contribute enough population to warrant 24-hour service. Poughkeepsie and Beacon are especially important due to their proximity to Hudson River crossings.

You're 100% on the money with this one. You'd be surprised how many people ride out of Beacon who live on the other side of the river. Some of them I envy, since they technically live in Ulster County, and contribute zilch to MTA operations (beyond direct state subsidies)

pnaw10 wrote:Harlem Line: Hourly service for the electrified zone. Unlike the Hudson Line, most of the territory north of Southeast is still "in the sticks" as someone else put it, at least for the time being. I don't think it's necessary to run hourly Wassaic shuttles... maybe just one during the entire overnight period, if any at all. But expect this to change over next 10-15 years. People are beginning to discover the eastern side of Dutchess County... slowly but surely. I wouldn't be surprised if demand grows enough to require double-tracking the entire upper section of the line. Hard to predict when this day will come, but I think it will.

I don't think it will take that long. It's not a matter of if Eastern Dutchess becomes another bedroom community -- it already is one. I know a handful of people who commute out of Southeast because the northern service does not readily accomodate anyone who works outside the traditional Monday-Friday 9 to 5 or 8 to 4 work pattern. Four direct peak trains and bi-hourly service is not enough for hardcore workers.

Weekend service at night is equally miserable for these people. If you miss the 11:54 (which, BTW, terminates at Dover Plains -- not Wassaic), you have to wait 8 hours for another train. Can you understand why they drive to Southeast or Poughkeepsie/New Hamburg/Beacon?

I can understand why MN is not so quick to offer service, but this is the classic chicken and egg scenario. People won't ride unless there is service, and there won't be service unless people ride what already exists. This is one of the few times where MN, as a public utility, should take the "loss" of offering low-performing (from a financial point of view) trains in order to "develop" additional rides.

--

Even though I have not heard any grumblings about offering late night service (I felt better when TP chimed in and was equally befuddled), the lack of late night service has always been a sore point for me (especially since I had it when I lived on LI), and I see no financial or technical reason why it cannot be implemented. The only thing I see that is missing is the "will" of management to make it happen. Metro-North has been nothing short of excellent in responding to riders needs (for example, look at how they revised the Harlem timetable last fall), so it boggles the mind to see them fall short on late night service. Could it be that someone still has their head in the sand about who rides the trains (and when)?


Nester

Nester wrote:I know a handful of people who commute out of Southeast because the northern service does not readily accomodate anyone who works outside the traditional Monday-Friday 9 to 5 or 8 to 4 work pattern. Four direct peak trains and bi-hourly service is not enough for hardcore workers.

I suspect part of this is due to the limited trackage north of Southeast. Though I've been back in the area to see the Hudson Line as recently as April or May, it's been several years since I've seen any of the upper Harlem. (Friends of my family who lived in Dover Plains have since retired, sold their house and moved away... so not much reason to go there anymore.)

When I was last in the area, in the late 90's, MN was (I think) beginning to install a few passing sidings along the upper Harlem Line, so that trains could run in both directions at the same time. A look at the schedule seems to indicate these are in use during the evening rush... with a northbound train at HV-W at 6:19, followed by a southbounder at 6:22. No way that could have been done 10 years ago. But, nothing during the morning rush... and I see it's just one shuttle train going back and forth all day during the non-peak times. You're absolutely right, that this is a disservice to those who work non-traditional hours.

It would be interesting to see what happens if MN were to run two shuttles on the upper line, allowing for hourly service in both directions all day long. However (making sure we're still on-topic), I'm still not sure if hourly service would be necessary throughout the entire night.

Does MN ever conduct rider surveys? Hand out survey forms and cheap golf pencils, and ask people for suggestions about how the service can be improved. Otherwise, I would just encourage your friends to visit www.mta.info and leave their comments there. You're right that MN is usually pretty good about responding to customer comments, so maybe it's just that they haven't heard from enough people who'd be interested in more frequent upper Harlem service.

There was an article in the Journal News published on July 28. The article, about Metro-North Late Night Service stated:

From the surplus, $1.5 million would be used to expand late-night service on Metro-North Railroad by giving riders an extra half hour in New York City. The last Hudson Line train now leaves Grand Central Terminal at 1:20 a.m. and the last Harlem and New Haven line trains at 1:30 a.m.

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs ... 029/NEWS13

So in reality, I can only see them adding one outbound train on each line if they really are only expanding service by a half-hour - 1:50 a.m. on the Hudson and 2:00 a.m. on the Harlem/New Haven lines; the terminal, I assume, would still be closed between 2:00 a.m. (ish) through the first arriving/departing train (around 5:00 a.m., if I recall correctly).

It is a start in the right direction for Metro-North. Personally, I would rather see the service be an extra hour later, since the service pattern is already hourly. How about a 2:20 Hudson local and 2:30 Harlem and New Haven trains instead? I am interested in hearing what other posters think about this...

Nester

Nester wrote: I am interested in hearing what other posters think about this...
Nester

I think they should be doing what the LIRR does. For the main branches, they have a train that leaves about 1:30 am, then they have one that leave about 3 am, then the next about 5 am.

I think the current half-hour plan is needed (2:00 a.m.); but then they should also add a train leaving at 3:00 a.m. then 5:00 a.m. as mkm mentioned above. Making all local stops, probably to Croton-connection to P'kepsie, Southeast and New Haven. Except that New Haven run will be massively long, even if they skip the Bronx stations.