"Night Owl" service

Actually, I finally got my Java plug-in working again, and I was able to view the actual lease agreement between APU and MTA in 1994. The option period for purchase by MTA begins April 8, 2017 and ends October 5, 2019. So the MTA can't buy the property until 2015 at the earliest.

Even then, if APU doesn't want to sell when MTA exercises the purchase option, they can extend the lease once for up to 15 years, after which they have to sell to MTA if MTA still wants to buy.

So APU still technically owns GCT and the Hudson & Harlem Lines, leasing it to MTA until 2274 or whenever MTA exercises the purchase option.

For those who are interested, the link is: http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSe ... 0004818959

That brings you to the lease document. If you want to do a search on all property records, go to the main search page (http://a836-acris.nyc.gov/Scripts/DocSearch.dll/BBL) and enter in Borough (Manhattan), block (1280) and lot (0001).

Jim

Jim, your info is very interesting. Looks like I was wrong. Still, I remember when they were first talking about GCT renovations there was talk that they couldn't start until MN or the MTA bought GCT. Maybe these leases give the MTA enough guarantees and options to buy, that the leases were considered equivalent of ownership for all practical purposes.

That's absolutely correct. I remember clearly at that time, that even though it was only a lease and the purchase option hadn't been exercised, the renovation would go forward because there was no longer any uncertainty about ownership. They absolutely did not want to restore the building if there was no certainty of ever taking ownership, and that's why such major repairs waited as long as they did.

Jim

So now that we have established that the MTA has control (but not true ownership) over Grand Central, can someone offer a technical or operational reason why late-night service could not be re-established?

Nester

Not enough equipment, MNCR needs a window to fix the fleet in its current shape.
Inspection cycles are getting tougher, cars need to be switched out and serviced.

Nester wrote:So now that we have established that the MTA has control (but not true ownership) over Grand Central, can someone offer a technical or operational reason why late-night service could not be re-established?

If you want to boil it down to its most basic elements, I'm sure (and I speak only for myself here) that there's no technical or operational reason why it can't be done. The LIRR does it and they operate under the same regulatory and mechanical constraints that MNR does. I'd be willing to guess it's entirely an expense vs. revenues issue. But since you want to know the actual reason, why not ask MNR directly? Yes, there are some MNR employees who post here, but we speak only for ourselves, not for the railroad, and we probably don't have access to the information you want. It can't hurt to ask, right?

Jim

MN Jim wrote:But since you want to know the actual reason, why not ask MNR directly? Yes, there are some MNR employees who post here, but we speak only for ourselves, not for the railroad, and we probably don't have access to the information you want. It can't hurt to ask, right?

No one said that I wouldn't ask. But there's the company answer and then there is the real answer. Why bother if they are going to BS me about lack of demand, only to come here and find that they traded away that horse to give ACRE some benefit in the last agreement?

Not that the above example is true, (I've read the last agreement) but I wanted to know if there was a legitimate operational reason why they cannot. Since there isn't one, I'll contact them and see what they say...

Nester

Nester wrote:

MN Jim wrote:But since you want to know the actual reason, why not ask MNR directly? Yes, there are some MNR employees who post here, but we speak only for ourselves, not for the railroad, and we probably don't have access to the information you want. It can't hurt to ask, right?

No one said that I wouldn't ask. But there's the company answer and then there is the real answer. Why bother if they are going to BS me about lack of demand, only to come here and find that they traded away that horse to give ACRE some benefit in the last agreement?

Not that the above example is true, (I've read the last agreement) but I wanted to know if there was a legitimate operational reason why they cannot. Since there isn't one, I'll contact them and see what they say...

Nester

I can't see the logic that MN does not have the equipment to provide all
night service. They have several sets of equipment laying over in Grand
Central Terminal at night and there are no facilities for any major amount
of repair work to take place there anyway.
To my way of thinking, only a couple of more trains on each line are
involved here anyway. Only electric equipment would probably be used
as I doubt there would be enough demand for a train to Poughkeepsie or
Wassaic or on the New Haven Branch Lines.
Probably all that would be needed would be an all stops train to Brewster
and New Haven around 3:00AM and 4:30AM and a similiar train to Croton
around those times too. Similiar inbound service in the same general
matter too.
If they see fit, they could put on a surcharge to ride these night owl trains,
it would still be safer, better and cheaper than hiring a taxicab to get home.
As for the union, this sounds to me like the cart pushing the horse, I always thought the company sets up the schedule and not the union.
Years ago, the union(s) did have a voice in setting up the crew runs, I
know because I was involved in it a number of times, but I do not believe
the union has too much say in it anymore.
I realize that in many cases, cars have to be switched or maintained and
about the only time this can be done is at night but the cars in GCT don't
get much done to them anyway.
It is clear that I will not be there to ride the trains anyway, so I am
putting this on here only for discussion purposes.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:To my way of thinking, only a couple of more trains on each line are
involved here anyway. Only electric equipment would probably be used
as I doubt there would be enough demand for a train to Poughkeepsie or
Wassaic or on the New Haven Branch Lines.
Probably all that would be needed would be an all stops train to Brewster
and New Haven around 3:00AM and 4:30AM and a similiar train to Croton
around those times too. Similiar inbound service in the same general
matter too.
Noel Weaver

I agree that the branch lines probably don't need 'night owl' service, but I think running to Poughkeepsie would be useful. Maybe run electric to Croton Harmon, and then have a diesel make the run up to Poughkeepsie (as they do with the last train now). I don't really consider Po-Town as branchline, but I could see stopping at brewster.

As for the reverse, I don't think there would be a huge demand for it. I doubt there are many people who want to go to NYC at 2am, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to leave NYC and head to points north at 3am.

Noel Weaver wrote:To my way of thinking, only a couple of more trains on each line are
involved here anyway. Only electric equipment would probably be used
as I doubt there would be enough demand for a train to Poughkeepsie or
Wassaic or on the New Haven Branch Lines.

When did you punch out for the last time, Noel? Pokie-land isn't the sticks anymore In another 10 years, I don't think Wassiac will be, either (but we can pick that up in another thread).

Nester

roee wrote:As for the reverse, I don't think there would be a huge demand for it. I doubt there are many people who want to go to NYC at 2am, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to leave NYC and head to points north at 3am.

I agree that the demand is probably low, though. Adding outbound night service would only cause people to stay later, (likely) increasing tax revenues (of which the MTA receives pieces of -- sales tax, telephone tax, business income tax surcharge, etc.) Anyone going to NYC at 2 AM probably already has been doing so for some time, and will be reluctant to let go of their current mode of transport.

The only people I could see using such a train in any quantity would be service workers (bar/restaurant), and for them to work in the Hudson Valley yet live in NYC seems to defy "economic" sense. They would be better served living upstate

Nester

Nester wrote:

Noel Weaver wrote:To my way of thinking, only a couple of more trains on each line are
involved here anyway. Only electric equipment would probably be used
as I doubt there would be enough demand for a train to Poughkeepsie or
Wassaic or on the New Haven Branch Lines.

When did you punch out for the last time, Noel? Pokie-land isn't the sticks anymore In another 10 years, I don't think Wassiac will be, either (but we can pick that up in another thread).

Nester

OH I gotta be honest, it has been a while since I have worked for Metro
but I know the Hudson and especially the upper Hudson is growning by
leaps and bounds. Maybe a shuttle from Harmon. Some people would
likely need to be in NYC during the wee hours for some reason so I think
two way service should be provided if any wee hour service was going to
be provided.
Probably now, if somebody from Westchester or wherever has to be in
NYC too early for the first train(s), they would need to drive to a subway
station in the bronx and then drive back home. With heavy traffic on their
homeward trip during the daytime plus the price of gas, the late night
trains would be a good bet.
I am sure that Metro-North's ridership is way up over what it was when
the night owl trains came off some years ago.
Noel Weaver

There should be demand to runs trains OUT of GCT. However, there does not appear to be any inbound demand (or not enough to fill at least 4 cars).

OK -- so when did the trains officially stop running?

What was the service pattern at that time? (how many trains, what times, etc.) If someone wants to photocopy any old timetable out of their collection and mail it to me, I would be happy to pick up the tab on postage (i.e. a Self-Addressed-Stamped-Envelope)

Nester

GCT was a homeless shelter when they ran the service 24/7. At 1:30 every morning they kick everybody out. Some may think this is a little harsh but it did clean up GCT and you see alot less riff raff now than you did 20 years ago.