Putnam Division & Branches: Getty Square, Mohansic, Saw Mill

You're up early, Paul. My best recollection, based on what my father and grandfather told me while the Put was still running passenger service, was that the NYC had always maintained that GCT was operating at capacity and they had no intention of adding Put trains to the mix, even MU's. They would have preferred to handle the Yonkers passengers on the Hudson Division.

Now, we know that the Yonkers Branch of the Put was built before the NYC took over the railroad, but what was the incentive to electrify it? Was it really an issue of efficiency, or did some of the NYC directors, or financial moguls in a position to influence capital expenditures, live along the branch?

Interesting note - after the branch was electrified, the employees' timetable prohibited all locomotives on the branch. Work trains were operated with MU's for power. There must have been at least one "marginal" bridge up there. I have never heard of a law prohibiting steam locomotives in Yonkers, and they certainly operated on the Put main line.

R.P.C. and Chief, you are both up much earlier than I am, if I am up at
5:00AM, it usually because I am doing an all nighter from the night before.
I checked the Electric Division timetable from September, 1933 and that
one also shows all locomotives restricted between V.C.P. Jct and Getty
Square. In spite of that, the same timetable shows freight train speed of
25 MPH and passenger train speed of 40 MPH. There was a car weight restriction at the same time of cars of 110,000 pounds or heavier except MU.
It was only a little over three miles from Van Cortlandt Junction to Getty
Square (3.04 on the station page Getty Square to JS or 3.08 on the
timetable page from Getty Square to V.C.P. Jct.
Guess it is safe to assume that at least in 1933, there was no freight
business on this short section of line.
For what it's worth, there was also a freight track somewhere in the area
which at least some time was known as the "Saw Mill Industrial Track". I
wonder where that line ran relative to the Getty Square tracks?
Merry Christmas to both of you and everybody else on here.
Noel Weaver

I am going to expose my ignorance... and hopefully y'all can set it straight.

I was under the impression that in the steam days, crews were paid based on the the weight of the engines they operated? Something about lighter service engines on the Put? And wouldn't Put crews have to qualify on the Hudson Division from High Bridge to GCT?

I think that was the "union" stuff people were alluding to earlier.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:I am going to expose my ignorance... and hopefully y'all can set it straight.

I was under the impression that in the steam days, crews were paid based on the the weight of the engines they operated? Something about lighter service engines on the Put? And wouldn't Put crews have to qualify on the Hudson Division from High Bridge to GCT?

I think that was the "union" stuff people were alluding to earlier.

-otto-

Engine crews were paid by weight on drivers in passenger service until
after Metro-North, Amtrak and the other agencies took over the contracts
for engineers and firemen but most of the fireman's positions have gone
by the wayside.
Freight and yard crews on most of the major railroads are still paid by
weight on drivers and a mileage rate.
All engineers have to be qualified on the territory in which they operate.
If Putnam crews had been required to operate into Grand Central, they
would have had to be qualified. This is NOT a union issue but is required
by the companies and today by the Feds. as well.
In the spirit of the late 1950's by the time that the New York Central was
making preparations to discontinue passenger operations on the Putnam
Division, I still think if the state and locals had provided some financial
support to the New York Central, the Put could have survived. If that had
occurred it might well have been running even today as the area has
shown some growth and continues to show some growth.
As much as the Pennsylvania, New York Central and the New Haven were
pleading for help, no help arrived and almost all of the commuter trains
came off as a result.
Noel Weaver

OK, I can address the question RE the Getty Sq. Branch vs, the "Saw Mill Industrial Track."

These were two different operations and really nowhere near each other. The Getty Sq. Branch diverged from the Put at Van Cortland Park Jct which would have been approximately on a latitude with, say, 250th St. in The Bronx. It ran parallel with, and not far east of, Broadway for its entire length. The bridge where it crossed the Henry Hudson Parkway is the first overhead bridge north (Parkway direction; by the compass it's east) of where the Parkway crosses Broadway in Riverdale. The bridge is still there and is clearly an ex-railroad bridge. Thre branch continued north to Getty Sq. which is the intersection of Broadway and Main St. in downtown Yonkers. A railfan buddy and I walked the whole thing as college students one day around 1965. It was fully intact and easily walkable then; I don't know about today.

For the Saw Mill Industrial track: continue north on the Put to, oh --- just south of Grey Oaks Station (Odell Ave.). The industrial track diverged southward and slightly to the west, dipped under the Saw Mill Pkwy almost at Tuckahoe Road, and served several industries that sit (or sat) in the Valley right in there.

You know, we raifans get misty eyed thinking about the Put. If that line had somehow survived intact all this time there well might be a need for it in the commutation scheme of today. However, in the 50s it was "toast." Even after dieselization it was an unbelievably antiquated operation with its rural twisty single track, kerosene-lit stations with outhouses, and all communication still by telegraph! This stuff has huge railfan appeal, but realistically, the line needed some investment.

Now look at the company's point of view.

As somebody pointed out previously, this was a weighty millstone on the back of the NYC, since commuter operations were unsubsidized in those days. Railroads were still being expected (and under the control of various regulatory agencies to make sure they delivered!!!) to keep these operations as a public service. Government had not yet woke up to the reality that the rail industry was no longer run by "captains of industry," some of whom literally had more money than the US Treasury had in the late 19th century. In this environment the NYC had to work hard to get out from under this marginal operation. They were resented for wanting to --- but, hey, they had shareholders.

By the way, does anybody out there besides me remember riding the last fantrip on The Put? It was October 1967 and obviously at that time could only go as far as East View (Same trip covered other rare mileage around New York). This was a treat as it was the only time I ever got to ride any of the line at all.

Any pictures of the current ROW?

Tom Curtin wrote:You know, we raifans get misty eyed thinking about the Put. If that line had somehow survived intact all this time there well might be a need for it in the commutation scheme of today. However, in the 50s it was "toast." Even after dieselization it was an unbelievably antiquated operation with its rural twisty single track, kerosene-lit stations with outhouses, and all communication still by telegraph! This stuff has huge railfan appeal, but realistically, the line needed some investment.

Now look at the company's point of view.

As somebody pointed out previously, this was a weighty millstone on the back of the NYC, since commuter operations were unsubsidized in those days. Railroads were still being expected (and under the control of various regulatory agencies to make sure they delivered!!!) to keep these operations as a public service. Government had not yet woke up to the reality that the rail industry was no longer run by "captains of industry," some of whom literally had more money than the US Treasury had in the late 19th century. In this environment the NYC had to work hard to get out from under this marginal operation. They were resented for wanting to --- but, hey, they had shareholders.

By the way, does anybody out there besides me remember riding the last fantrip on The Put? It was October 1967 and obviously at that time could only go as far as East View (Same trip covered other rare mileage around New York). This was a treat as it was the only time I ever got to ride any of the line at all.

As I said earlier, I got to ride the last trip in and out on the Put in 1958.
Still got some of the stuff from that trip including movies that I took of the
line mostly from the rear end of the train. 8259 Pulled the last train of
five cars. I got a nice sign out of the Yorktown Heights station too.
Unfortunately, there was not enough freight business on the middle section
to justify its continued operation.
Noel Weaver

Just one example of government attitude toward railroads in New York State - The New York and Northern (Put) right-of-way at Ardsley was wholly within the Village of Dobbs Ferry. Ardsley had not been incorporated when the railroad was built, so Dobbs Ferry conveniently annexed enough land to envelop the railroad, so they could tax the daylights out of it. The station remained in Dobbs Ferry even after it was moved across the tracks in 1950.

Soon after the Put passenger service shut down, New York State generously provided property tax relief for all railroad property used SOLELY for commuter service. That's why the Hudson Division Agent at Dobbs Ferry got out of the freight business, and Dobbs Ferry came under the Yonkers agency, IIRC. If he had typed one waybill in a year, the entire station would have remained on the tax rolls.

Ardsley was a good example. Here is another, the Boston and Maine had
a roundhouse at Mechanicville to service and maintain locomotives but the
state and locals taxed the hell out of railroad property. The result, the
roof came off, property taxes reduced and most of the repair work was
transferred elsewhere. Result was lost jobs and the benefits that went
with them and even less taxes. I guess buildings without roofs were no
longer considered buildings for tax purposes.
One reason Conrail was reluctant to improve and expand facilities in New
York State was the ridiculous taxes that they paid on their property and
facilities. Every unneeded track, every unneeded switch and every
unneeded building was destroyed or removed for that reason. This policy
dates back to the Penn Central and even to the New York Central days.
There are countless properties and facilities in New York State that are
gone today because of the tax situation.
Noel Weaver

I've never been to New York, so don't have any first-hand knowledge of the Putnam Div/Br and have been a bit confused by what I've read about it's south end. Did Putnam trains run through to GCT, or did they stop at a station on the main line? Stopping would mean passengers had to transfer to main line trains to get to GCT right? Also, from what I've read, I assume the Putnam was never electrfied. I also believe it was abandoned many years ago and no Metro North trains run on it. Any clarification you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

The New Yorkers doubtless can give you a much more detailed answer, but, basically, during most of the 20th century Putnam Div. passenger trains terminated at Sedgwick Ave. in the Bronx, where passengers could transfer to an IRT elevated shuttle between 155th St. (In earlier days, there was a direct connection at Sedgwick Ave. to the 9th Ave. el in Manhattan) The bulk of passengers, however, transferred to Hudson Div. m.u. trains at High Bridge, the next station west. The Put's engine terminal also was at High Bridge.

The New York & Northern, the Put's original predecessor, terminated at the 155th St. terminal of the 9th Ave. el in Manhattan, next to the onetime Polo Grounds. The line then swung north to crosds the Harlem River on a swing bridge at about the site of the later Sedgwick Ave. terminal. Some time early in the 20th century this section was taken over by the IRT, electrified, and made part of a shuttle line to the Bronx, and afterward all Put trains used the Sedgwick Ave. terminal.

The NY&N opened a branch to Yonkers in 1888s, which was generally operated with 2-4-4T Forney-type engines and elevated-style coaches. The branch left the main line at Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx. Forney locomotive continued under NYC control until 1926, when the Central electrified the Yonkers branch, using its standard third-rail system. There was no through operation to GCT, however; passengers continued to traqnsfer at High Bridge. The Yonkers branch was abandoned in 1943.

Unfortunately, the tracks ran side by side with the Hudson Division from just below Marble Hill to Highbridge. A throw of the switch and they could have run GCT service.

I don't know why they didn't do it. My father rode that line and he could never understand it. It was like part of the plan to kill the line eventually and it would have seemed to have worked.

Dieter./

One reason the Put trains did not run through to GCT was the necessity of
an engine change in the Bronx. It would have added drastically to the
already money losing situation regarding those particular trains.
The biggest thing that killed the Put was the tax situation at that time and
the lack of any sign of state support in 1958.
Another reason was that the line was not very far from either the Harlem
or the Hudson Divisions and both of them had heavy ridership and many
more and faster trains than the Put had.
The Put was a scenic and interesting ride in the country but the Central
was losing its shirt on it and it had to go.
Noel Weaver

I thought work rules prevented Put crews from actually operating on the Hudson Division into GCT? That, and a time-consuming engine change from steam to electric was another factor.

Part of the Put was electrified- the Yonkers Branch from Getty Sq. down to Van Cortlandt Jct and down to High Bridge. Even though they used the same MU cars as the mainline, even these trains did not run through to GCT.