Number one, I do not think work rules were the big issue in the non-
operation of Put trains into GCT. The Harlem and the Hudson were
separate roster territories from GCT on the New York Central but their
crews operated into GCT. Harlem crews also ran over the Hudson to
reach 72nd Street on the job that ran between 72nd Street and Chatham
later cut back to Brewster.
Number two, NO, I never did work the Put, I did work the other divisions
which included the Hudson, Harlem, New Haven and the River Line in New
Jersey.
Noel Weaver
Railroad Forums
Putnam Division & Branches: Getty Square, Mohansic, Saw Mill
- Discussion relating to the NYC and subsidiaries, up to 1968. Visit the NYCS Historical Society for more information.
Moderator: Otto Vondrak
Noel is correct regarding "work rules." The work rules were embodied in agreements between the "carrier" and the "organization," terms that referred to the railroad and the union. They were always the subject of negotiation, and they could be changed when both sides agreed. There was nothing graven in stone that would prevent the labor organizations and the New York Central from making an agreement that would permit Putnam Division train crews to operate into Grand Central Terminal.
Those "interdivisional" agreements were common on many railroads, including the NYC. There was a time when train (but not engine) crews ran through on some passenger trains between New York and Buffalo, over three seniority districts. Those arrangements normally included mileage equalization provisions so that all the seniority groups involved could share the work.
The reason for the NYC to keep Put trains out of GCT was the fact that the Put was maintained primarily as a route for high and wide freight shipments to and from New York City. The passenger service was an accommodation to the local communities, where most of the passengers could walk to the station, and where NYC also handled mail and express. The division, in steam days, was actually operating at close to capacity considering the location of sidings, the light steam power (F-12's with small tenders) that could operate over some of the bridges, and the general configuration of the railroad.
If the NYC increased the demand for Put service by eliminating the change at High Bridge they would have had to upgrade the railroad in many ways to accommodate the demand. That would have been a bad business decision, especially considering that they were handling the same commuters much more efficiently on the Hudson and Harlem Divisions.
The Yonkers Branch was electrified because it was costing too much to operate the fleet of very light steam power that was limited to the branch. If the rest of the Put had been electrified, they would have had to spend a small fortune just to eliminate the highway grade crossings. It would also probably have required double tracking to handle the added traffic.
This is just another drop in the bucket for this topic, which pops up here with some regularity.
Those "interdivisional" agreements were common on many railroads, including the NYC. There was a time when train (but not engine) crews ran through on some passenger trains between New York and Buffalo, over three seniority districts. Those arrangements normally included mileage equalization provisions so that all the seniority groups involved could share the work.
The reason for the NYC to keep Put trains out of GCT was the fact that the Put was maintained primarily as a route for high and wide freight shipments to and from New York City. The passenger service was an accommodation to the local communities, where most of the passengers could walk to the station, and where NYC also handled mail and express. The division, in steam days, was actually operating at close to capacity considering the location of sidings, the light steam power (F-12's with small tenders) that could operate over some of the bridges, and the general configuration of the railroad.
If the NYC increased the demand for Put service by eliminating the change at High Bridge they would have had to upgrade the railroad in many ways to accommodate the demand. That would have been a bad business decision, especially considering that they were handling the same commuters much more efficiently on the Hudson and Harlem Divisions.
The Yonkers Branch was electrified because it was costing too much to operate the fleet of very light steam power that was limited to the branch. If the rest of the Put had been electrified, they would have had to spend a small fortune just to eliminate the highway grade crossings. It would also probably have required double tracking to handle the added traffic.
This is just another drop in the bucket for this topic, which pops up here with some regularity.
The Put is high up on the list of lines that I regret missing riding! I was on a fantrip in the fall of 67 that covered the then-active piece as far north as East View. But of course by then it was gone north of there.
Well, I might still have them. I distinctly remember taking a few B&W prints at photo stops at East View (where the RS3 ran around the train), Elmsford, and Ardsley. I will certainly take a look when I can. Just be advised that "when I can" could be a while since my collections are mostly stored and not readily accessible to me. The trip was October 1967 and covered the Port Morris "rat hole," The West Side Freight line, and the Put (Who'd have thunk in 67 that we'd be routinely riding the WSFL now?). Since the date was a few months before the PC merger, this might just have been the very fantrip on the NYC!!
It was sponsored by the New York Electric Railroaders Association.
One other exotic item about it: it started and ended at a place that no longer exists: 138th Street ("The Bronx") station.
It was sponsored by the New York Electric Railroaders Association.
One other exotic item about it: it started and ended at a place that no longer exists: 138th Street ("The Bronx") station.
I worked on the Put in 1977. The last engineer with prior seniority on the Putnam Division was a man named Walter Gilcher. When the Put Switcher, which worked out of BN Yard, was terminated by Penn Central the work went to the Harlem Line extra list in North White Plains. I owned the White Plains traveling switcher at the time (WP-1 with conctor Joe Grace). Two or three days a week we would go from Oak Point, around the wye at MO to BN and up the Put to Elmsford. It was a slow ride and by the time we got back to BN, the afternoon rush had begun and the Hudson dispatcher would not let us out of BN. That put a lot of money in our pockets!
Although a previous poster said the Yonkers Branch was abandoned, about a mile of track was in service in 1977 with a plastics company getting periodic service. It was a pain as the factory was at the end of the line and you had to do a flying switch to get the car past the engine to shove it into the siding. Because the rails were so rusted, people parked on the tracks all the time and you had to find them to move. Time was money and this was another reason we would outlaw every time we went up the Put. When there was a lot of work, especially for Stella Doro, they would call an extra switcher and I worked those jobs as well.
Although a previous poster said the Yonkers Branch was abandoned, about a mile of track was in service in 1977 with a plastics company getting periodic service. It was a pain as the factory was at the end of the line and you had to do a flying switch to get the car past the engine to shove it into the siding. Because the rails were so rusted, people parked on the tracks all the time and you had to find them to move. Time was money and this was another reason we would outlaw every time we went up the Put. When there was a lot of work, especially for Stella Doro, they would call an extra switcher and I worked those jobs as well.
Although a previous poster said the Yonkers Branch was abandoned, about a mile of track was in service in 1977 with a plastics company getting periodic service.That piece of railroad that connected with the Put in 1977 had been known as the Saw Mill River Industrial Track. In the 1960's it served Alexander Smith Carpet Co and several other industries. NYC kept an agent at Nepperhan to handle the business. It was always strictly a local freight operation, with no passenger service.
The Yonkers Branch that we were discussing as having been abandoned in the 1940's ran from JS Tower at Van Cortlandt Park Jct to Getty Square, Yonkers. After it was electrifed in the 1920's (I don't want to jump around to locate the exact date) the Put from Sedgewick Ave to JS and Getty Square became part of the Electric Division, and the Putnam Division, under the Harlem superintendent at White Plains, ran from JS to Put Jct (Brewster).
After the Yonkers Branch was electrified and the light steam locomotives assigned to it were scrapped, the branch was restricted to prohibit the operation of any locomotives at all. Every train was powered by MU cars, even work trains with flat cars or Jordan spreaders.
Remnants of the Getty Sq. branch are getting difficult to find, except for the first couple of miles which traverse Van Cortlandt Park. The site of Getty Sq station itself has been totally obliterated by urban renewal in downtown Yonkers, where there is a whole new street.
The Saw Mill River industrial spur on the other hand is still quite easy to trace the path of. You can see it from the Saw Mill Parkway.
The Saw Mill River industrial spur on the other hand is still quite easy to trace the path of. You can see it from the Saw Mill Parkway.
Dieter wrote:Are there still tracks in the park?I was in Van Cortlandt a couple weeks ago. The tracks are gone completely from the very southern border of the park all the way up to the concrete bridge thats just north of the junction. Once you cross over the concrete bridge you will find that most of the ties (no rails) are still in place half-buried in the dirt and leaves next to the walking/biking trail. It continues on like this for about 3/4 of a mile until you hit the Westchester County border. Once you cross into Westchester, the ties disappear too.
From the junction with the Hudson Division above Highbridge, how far does the trackage go these days?
Dieter/
From the Hudson Div. junction the tracks only go about 1/8 mile to about W. 230th street. Maybe W. 231st street. I'm not sure of the street names in that area. I know it ends by one of the overpasses.
shlustig wrote: Didn't Joe Grace move to the Harlem side after Jimmy Roache retired???Yes. Joe Grace was my conductor on WP-1 after I gave up the Road Foreman's job at NWP in 1978. Bobby Harmon was the brakeman and Frank Fucile Sr. was the flagman. I had several firemen on the job but it was often blanked as firemen were being force assigned promotion in Selkirk if they worked on a freight job. Those holding passenger positions were protected. The reason I was able to hold the job was probably the requirement to be qualified to 72nd St, Put. Jct. and Oak Point. Most of the senior men who had those qualifications did not want to work freight. I finally got bumped off the job by Fred Pulver who was ten years ahead of me on the roster.
Penn Central wrote:My goodness, that sounds like a job that I could have liked. Actually at the time, I had better seniority on the New Haven than previously and Ishlustig wrote: Didn't Joe Grace move to the Harlem side after Jimmy Roache retired???Yes. Joe Grace was my conductor on WP-1 after I gave up the Road Foreman's job at NWP in 1978. Bobby Harmon was the brakeman and Frank Fucile Sr. was the flagman. I had several firemen on the job but it was often blanked as firemen were being force assigned promotion in Selkirk if they worked on a freight job. Those holding passenger positions were protected. The reason I was able to hold the job was probably the requirement to be qualified to 72nd St, Put. Jct. and Oak Point. Most of the senior men who had those qualifications did not want to work freight. I finally got bumped off the job by Fred Pulver who was ten years ahead of me on the roster.
was also doing quite well on the River Division. I think it was around that
time that I had the first extra between 8:00 AM and 12:00 NOON. I had
the "senior citizens" for train crew - Gene Hoyt, Clarence Barker and
Huey Dooey on the head end. One way and deadhead unless we swapped
on the road which we often did.
The deadheading and swapping on the River Line ended in 1982 and so my time ended there at that time too. I had already decided that given a
choice that I would have to make for 1983, it was going to be Metro-North
and that is where I worked for the following four years (1983 to 1987).
One thing that kept a good check coming every week was my willingness
to qualify on various lines over the years, it always paid off for me.
Noel Weaver