Sleeper Alternative: First-Class Airline-Style Fold Flat Sections

electricron wrote: ↑Thu Sep 28, 2023 11:19 pm ...
The only car type a lay flat car out earns is the Amfleet 2 coach.
Why do it if it looses money where you want to use it, on the NEC ?

At the very least, your analysis confirms that the lay-flat pods earn approximately the same revenue per floor area as a coach or roomette. Good!

If you really think that it is financially sensible to *only* offer the 'highest revenue' accommodation, then you are saying Amtrak should immediately scrap all coaches and force everyone into double-occupancy roomettes! Are you seriously advocating this? Of course not. Any business knows to offer a range of products because there are multiple markets to address. Airlines earn most profit on business/first, but they still offer coach. All some of us are saying is that there is a (potentially large) untapped market for a seat that's better than coach, but not as expensive as a private bedroom.

As to more flaws in your analysis:
- you assume high-density day coaches and overnight LD coaches charge the same fare. I doubt it.
- at best you'd get 18 roomettes in a single level car. See Viewliner II. Analyzing half a superliner does not allow for toilets, baggage, attendant etc. which are mostly downstairs.
- I compute you can actually get 36 pods in a Viewliner shell, still leaving room for 2 toilets and 6' wide luggage compartments on both sides. Looking at this UA layout, they get 2 pods on each side of the aisle for every 7.2 linear feet of cabin length. Since Viewliner floor width is a little more than half 787's width, just consider single aisle equivalence. So now, by your formula, my pods at "90" are one of the highest revenue-generating uses of a railcar!

diagram I used for computation: I welcome any corrections to my math.
https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/unit ... acity.html

electricron wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 1:21 pm

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 12:57 pm Here's the problem: The Night Owl as it is now is slated to be an Airo set.

Here's a solution: Build said biz-snoozer cars for a new DC-Boston only train line. Then who gives two hoots about Night Owl when you got this Twilight Shoreliner you can snooze in with some more privacy than in coach. Granted, you gotta wye the entire thing...

The new Airo train sets will have a cab car on the opposite end of the diesel locomotive and electric pan cars. No wyeing necessary. But it will have traditional 3 abreast business class seating. Amtrak would have to charge 1st class seating fares for a 3 abreast lay flat seating.
How many will wish to pay extra for a lay flat seat when a regular business class seats are available?
Why replace a simple mechanical seat with a motorized one?

Who said I was wye'ing an Airo?

Let me be clear: If you're building a few biz-snoozer cars from Amfleet II's, you're not attaching them to Airo consists. You're making essentially a LD train. You're shoving an ACS-64 on one end, and everything's going to be Amfleet equipment. You're wye'ing that consist.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:30 pm You're shoving an ACS-64 on one end, and everything's going to be Amfleet equipment. You're wye'ing that consist.

If a few Metroliners could be retained as operating cabs, no need for loop or wye.

rohr turbo wrote: ↑Fri Sep 29, 2023 4:19 pm At the very least, your analysis confirms that the lay-flat pods earn approximately the same revenue per floor area as a coach or roomette. Good!
As to more flaws in your analysis:
- you assume high-density day coaches and overnight LD coaches charge the same fare. I doubt it.
- at best you'd get 18 roomettes in a single level car. See Viewliner II. Analyzing half a superliner does not allow for toilets, baggage, attendant etc. which are mostly downstairs.
- I compute you can actually get 36 pods in a Viewliner shell, still leaving room for 2 toilets and 6' wide luggage compartments on both sides. Looking at this UA layout, they get 2 pods on each side of the aisle for every 7.2 linear feet of cabin length. Since Viewliner floor width is a little more than half 787's width, just consider single aisle equivalence. So now, by your formula, my pods at "90" are one of the highest revenue-generating uses of a railcar!

diagram I used for computation: I welcome any corrections to my math.

United-Polaris.0.jpg

https://www.flyertalk.com/articles/unit ... acity.html

To begin with, your double aisle arrangement, each aisle needing to be 3 feet wide to meet Americans with Disabilities Act, only leaves 4 feet remaining for seats. 4 abreast seating means each seat is only 1 foot wide. Are you planning to only sell tickets to kids? Amtrak finds it difficult enough to get 4 abreast seating with just one 3 feet wide aisle.
As for my halving the upstairs Superliner model, the stairs and kink in the hallway accounts for one additional restroom (making a total of two) and one vestibule on either side of the car. Granted, one roomette will be occupied by an attendant, but so would one of your lay flat seats.
I was not even taking into consideration long distance vs corridor seat coach fares. I was assuming a coach seat would cost the same as before when you purchased the ride, on a corridor train, and called it unity. Amtrak uses a variable rate fare pricing scheme depending upon how full that train is. Amtrak will not be using Viewliner cars on corridor trains.
On long distance trains, due to their extreme length of time, they do not attract business class customers in numbers to fill a lay flat coach car. So putting one on them just to add variety will lose money.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 8:43 am To begin with, your double aisle arrangement, each aisle needing to be 3 feet wide to meet Americans with

Of course I was not proposing double aisle!! Re-read my post.

What a 787/777 can do in 9 or 9.5 ft (half the cabin width), a Viewliner can fit in 10 ft. SINGLE AISLE.

(I cropped my diagram to help you understand:) And my car probably doesn't need an attendant. Or at worst, give up one of the 6' long luggage racks for another seat.

If you're going to bring ADA into it, then you'd better give up 4 of your roomettes to put in an accessible bedroom with a serpentine corridor!

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Sep 30, 2023 8:43 am On long distance trains, due to their extreme length of time, they do not attract business class customers in numbers to fill a lay flat coach car. So putting one on them just to add variety will lose money.

Note I said try this first on the Night Owl -- that certainly can attract business class customers.

But who's to say only business people like a comfortable seat?

For other LD, I believe pods would be super attractive to riders. We know LD often sell out both coach and bedrooms with (as you say) a 4x difference in price. Why do you disbelieve there is a middle ground?

Could Pods be a solution?: Yahoo/CNN

Solo sleeping pods aim to revolutionize European train travel
...
Amid the better all-round service, one thing stands out: a focus on solo travelers, with the new trains containing pod-like single berths, as well as standard couchettes and sleeping cars.
...
The real innovation lies in the “Mini Cabins” – pod-like single berths in the couchette cars, stacked on top of each other in two layers, like a dormitory in which each person can seal off their private space.
...
Solo travelers will get their privacy, along with a tight but does-the-job space, with a mirror in the foldaway breakfast table, reading lamp, storage area and lockers for shoes and hand bags.
...

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 10:03 am Could Pods be a solution?: Yahoo/CNN

So here's OBB's press release: https://presse-oebb.at/News_Detail.aspx ... ueid=29807

And there's a lot more photos of the "Mini Cabin" which does leave an impression. These take inspiration from the Sunset trains in Japan and pod hotels over there (although with a lot more room). You can sit up and have some food. You lock your shoes and travel bag in the lockers there. You crawl in, leaving your feet pointed to the aisle, but because you can sit up in it you can close it with your hands.

I love the idea and want to try it out. It also removes the need to wye the consist because the "seats" aren't pointed the wrong way.

To be polite, they'd need to do some supersizing for an American clientele
...

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Mr. Wolf, this past August on my overseas trip. I was giving thought to a NightJet joyride. The plan would have had me cut my stay in Salzburg from six to four nights. The following day, I'd take a Bavarian Regional (Stadler EMU's) to Munich airport, dump my bag in storage, then get to Hbf and take the NightJet to Rome. Following day until afternoon, I would have been "homeless in Rome" (last there '71) then make my way to the airport and flown to Munich staying at an airport hotel (a Hilton) there. Following morning, on United's 787-10 back home.

I didn't; first there was overnight track work resulting in a CX of the Munich-Rome NightJet most of the summer, and even if available, the brutal heat wave affecting all of Europe (even Salzburg, in the Alps, was 30dg Centigrade unthinkable what it would have been in Rome ) would have made walking about unbearable - especially for an 82yo.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 07, 2023 7:59 pm To be polite, they'd need to do some supersizing for an American clientele
...

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72" by 24" with... hold on... (*measures*) 42" between bed and ceiling is sufficient for most passengers.

A passenger car with nothing but pod booths with a token porter roomette, a shower/bathroom, a regular restroom, and a wheelchair-accessible room/private bath comes out to... 32 pods (thus 32 regular passengers) and 2 more in the accessible room, plus full accessibility end to end.

I can see that on an overnight train, DC to Boston.

Mr. Wolf, not certain how often, if ever, you have "gone over there", but in my travels, I have found that those overseas, East or West; take your pick, are willing to "put up" with much more than are Americans. To sleep in an enclosed space only a little larger than a coffin, which is what any of these enclosed Couchettes appear to be, is something I wouldn't be about to do.

I've only had one Couchette experience in this life, and that is when on a May '90 trip, my Wagon-Lit (it was still hanging on during '90) Single Room for a Madrid-Sevilla trip "simply wasn't". So I was led back to a four bunk Couchette with three other occupants. So here I was; Upper bunk, bag between my legs, wallet and Passport is a back pocket...not too much in the way of sleep.

Turns out concerns were unfounded; two Spaniards who knew as much English as I know Spanish, and a Dutchman. He was our "terp" ("we are a small country; we have to know everybody's language") and it all ended at Sevilla with handshakes and farewells.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 5:19 am Mr. Wolf, not certain how often, if ever, you have "gone over there", but in my travels, I have found that those overseas, East or West; take your pick, are willing to "put up" with much more than are Americans. To sleep in an enclosed space only a little larger than a coffin, which is what any of these enclosed Couchettes appear to be, is something I wouldn't be about to do.

I've only had one Couchette experience in this life, and that is when on a May '90 trip, my Wagon-Lit (it was still hanging on during '90) Single Room for a Madrid-Sevilla trip "simply wasn't". So I was led back to a four bunk Couchette with three other occupants. So here I was; Upper bunk, bag between my legs, wallet and Passport is a back pocket...not too much in the way of sleep.

Turns out concerns were unfounded; two Spaniards who knew as much English as I know Spanish, and a Dutchman. He was our "terp" ("we are a small country; we have to know everybody's language") and it all ended at Sevilla with handshakes and farewells.

I'm very tempted to try it out, at the least. I tried a Pullman-style room in a New York hotel, and outside the troublesome window AC unit, wasn't too bad.

Although, I have to give you thanks, Mr. Norman. Your anecdote of your European travels gave me enough of an idea to write up a scene in my sequel novel.

Those pods look like a good plan for trains on eight- or ten-hour overnight schedules where the passengers would be asleep almost the whole time. I think there should be a lot of those trains, with sleepers that have no meals and no attendant but you arrive rested for your day in your destination, earlier than you could get there by plane from home, but Amtrak doesn't have any routes like that now. Imagine sitting up in a little pod like that for any length of time? No thank you. So unless they are basically sections with fixed walls instead of curtains and can turn into seats in the daytime, they are unsuitable for any train Amtrak now runs, and hardly worth buying half a dozen for one train I think Amtrak should have sleepers on.

The problem of a NEC sleeper service would be that it really be effective for the length of the entire corridor,
for example boarding or detaining at NYP at 2-3 AM would not be easy for many and interrupt the night's sleep.

The "Executive Sleeper" was a separate section (a lone sleeper) that attempted to solve that problem.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Sun Oct 08, 2023 8:50 pm The problem of a NEC sleeper service would be that it really be effective for the length of the entire corridor,
for example boarding or detaining at NYP at 2-3 AM would not be easy for many and interrupt the night's sleep.

The "Executive Sleeper" was a separate section (a lone sleeper) that attempted to solve that problem.

I can see that for the NEC WAS-BOS but also the Pennsylvanian (maybe as a secondary night train). Yes, have a baggage car or some area to stash large baggage, but you definitely will have folks going to conventions traveling to Pittsburgh on it.

In other words: If it's a day-trip train of at least 8 hours long and goes to a major city with many fan conventions over the year, you will sell out this biz-class sleeper a few days before and after said convention... and will need the baggage cars (for costumes -- no, I am not just talking the ones I go to).

Amtrak should also market to said conventions again...