Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

west point wrote:Unfortunately this whole world is placing too much blind faith in computers. Who writes these codes? More often than not it is someone who does not even know the business. Shuttig down a completely good system because of some glich and not able to restart a peerfectly good machine that is just a bit off is going to kill passengers on some stranded freezing weather or desert heat.

Yeah, nobody's dying on a stranded train anytime soon because of a computer...

We hear all of these great stories here about how bad the engines are, but what does the data actually say? What's the reliability of the fleet? What are the year over year differences in on time dependability for routes which have switched away from the older locomotives in favor of the new Siemens?

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eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:01 pm [
It's not the manufacturers responsibility to tell the airline how much training is required... that falls to the regulator and the airline.
Plus, at least one of those two were leased, so Boeing may not have had any involvement in defining the training.
People are quick to blame Boeing for both of these accidents, but arguably the standards pilot training at the airlines involved are just as responsible if not more so.

How can yousay that when the flight stasndards people were not informed about MCAS?. My old boss who worked as a FAA B-737 standards check designee never heard about MCAS until it became public. His work with counterparts at other airlines did not either. (AA, SW ) The only pilot AFAIK was the chief Boeing test pilot. I know of no commercial airplane that changes the stablizer trim down as fast as MCAS.
.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:45 pm

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 1:16 am The HHPs have QNX Linux

Is that from factory, or later?
I had recollection of them running windows, at one point.

Its ALWAYS been QNX, and unix variations for other modules. Windows isnt worth jack for running mission critical components in a locomotive. The main Car Monitor Unit runs on an 80386-16

SRich wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 5:36 am Mr ApproachMedium,

Can Amtrak say to Siemens that all those updates are done, and now they are required to start from scratch and if the motors don't work together they will issues fines...and maybe replace de bus I/O for an analog version?

That would require an entire re-start of onboard CCU software, each mod is 20k but amtrak has a service contract with siemens which includes these things. They have just been building mods since the original build, trying to get things to work or adding and removing features as amtrak, or siemens, chooses.(Also trying to cover up crappy hardware with software) Yes, siemens has changed stuff on the locomotives without giving amtrak a choice citing reliability meanwhile pissing off engineers (cannot change pans anymore without lowering both). And then theres demands like not being able to go over 15mph on metro north with a restricting in the cab which broke the function of a trailing unit or a cab car controlled unit, banning specific numbers from Keystone service until that problem was fixed.

The reason all the software versions arent the same is because its an involved process, its not something that can be done over the air (For many obvious safety concerns) Once the software is updated, a testing process must be done of all onboard components and systems before it can be re certified for use on a live train again. As far as the IO stations go, the analog IO stations are being installed in chargers. The mod for that was NOT approved for the ACS-64, citing costs and lack of real need to run double headers with diesels that often etc.

Ah yes what id do to have AEM-7 ACs again. Computer goes beep boop, propulsion works. Faults report. Throttle go zoom. yay. They were a little slower, but the air compressors could at least recharge a train after a penalty.

eolesen wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 3:01 pm It's not the manufacturers responsibility to tell the airline how much training is required... that falls to the regulator and the airline.

Maybe not "how much", but "what" should be trained is the manufacturer's responsibility. Boeing is responsible for (and is arguably the only competent authority to write) the training manuals for it's products--the huge problem with the MAX was that specific behaviors of the aircraft were not documented in training manuals provided by Boeing, and therefor neither trainers nor trainees knew about it.

After reading posts from early December to the present, my reply is:
Bring back the F-40's !

Great engines that seldom failed. Even if one was having some problems, chances are you could still get over the road with it (was able to do that once or twice).

In my working days, I think most enginemen would agree that it was the F-40 and the AEM-7 that saved Amtrak.

These days, looks like the Siemens "over-engineered" engines could drive the company into the ground.

I'm retired 11 years as of next month.
Glad that I served my time when I did...

(j.albert)

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 1:16 am The HHPs have QNX Linux

QNX is not Linux by any stretch of the imagination. It is it's own OS and kernel. At one time (before Blackberry bought them in a pivot away from cell phones), I was able to boot a QNX graphical environment off a 1.44 megabyte floppy disk.

But that's getting away from the point. The HHP-8's problems are with the convoluted cooling system. Straightening that out is pure plumbing.

I see that the Keystone services are frequently running with ACS-64s top and tail in lieu of using ex-Metroliner cab cars on one end. I understand this is because the cab cars are problematic (I am also seeing that Hartford Line services are sometimes P42s top and tail). When running this way, it appears both ACS-64s have pantographs up. Are they running as MUed locomotives in this case?

They are functioning like power cars. I have been on a few with both locomotives going. The acceleration is feels like MUs.

Brightline may be onto something, with locomotives both ends.
better acceleration, and no need for rescue locomotives.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:00 am QNX is not Linux by any stretch of the imagination. It is it's own OS and kernel. At one time (before Blackberry bought them in a pivot away from cell phones), I was able to boot a QNX graphical environment off a 1.44 megabyte floppy disk.

But that's getting away from the point. The HHP-8's problems are with the convoluted cooling system. Straightening that out is pure plumbing.

Ok, I was wondering about that. QNX is an old Unix Variant, with a microkernel. Not linux, though I know real time linux exists, it's not certified for any locomotives/airplanes.
the Hippo's issues were the cooling systems? That's the first time i've heard that.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 27, 2022 9:26 am Brightline may be onto something, with locomotives both ends.
better acceleration, and no need for rescue locomotives.

I saw that photo of an Amtrak trains with 3 Siemens locos actually being pulled by a BNSF freight engine; as I recall the snow killed the Siemens units. So far into the diesel era and they build locos that are not snow safe.

Makes you wonder if Metra is really on to something by using SD70MACs with inverter driven HEP for passenger use instead of something use-specific...

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Metra is on to the fact that rebuilds don't have to be Tier 4, which means they are way simpler locomotives. This isn't about being use-specific or not, just that there aren't many F59-era EMD-based passenger locomotives on the market.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Mon Dec 26, 2022 1:39 am(cannot change pans anymore without lowering both)

Can you run with both pantographs up in a sleet or ice storm?