Amtrak’s Growing Pains with Siemens Locomotives

But not Siemens?

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:29 pm

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:06 am They seem to be an over engineered electrical computerized nightmare. Locomotives are pretty simple, diesel engine turns a generator to make electricity to supply the traction motors to turn wheels. DONE. This seems like it has 4000 microprocessors to monitor each step in triplicate. I don't have my I-Pad with me to dig into some of the craziness just to say apply a parking brake or the special blow downs on the brakes for what I don't remember.

And how much more complicated are the new Airo versions going to be with their multi-powering options, APV cars, battery power, etc. All untested systems, right?

Have 5 years left I don't think I will see them. I wonder if I will ever see a Charger.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:03 pm They dont have that problem.

I know, not windows 98 based
"stand by for technical difficulties " with the locomotive, is something passengers will hear.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:57 pm Oh boy, people will know what it's like hearing over the train crew radio "the Hippo blue screened, again"

I so want to hear that radio call. Unfortunately, I doubt it'll happen as MARC's the only one that has 'em and are using them *as* engines... and I'm working from home now.

Again, I don't remember if it was the FL9AC's or DE/DM30's at LIRR where, years ago, it was common for them to have to reboot the computers to get things working. The DM's have long had problems from time to time getting the 3rd rail system working. They would sometimes switch over before Jamaica in bound, and the train would stop, ventilation go dead, maybe the lights, and then they'd give up, try to restart the diesels to go into Jamaica to dump the trainload. Sometimes, they'd tell people to get off, then get it working, and go on into Penn with about 2 passengers per car. And sometimes the problem would be the opposite - they'd come out of the tunnels heading east, and try to start the diesels. If you were in the first car, you could hear and feel them trying, and you were praying for the huge cloud of black smoke, the rumble, and electrical power being restored. And at times, only one of the 2 DM's would work.

Sort of entertaining. But, IOTW, unreliable loco systems that are too complex are nothing new.

west point wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:33 pm As much as this will be hated it is time to ----------- Clean sheet this whole system. Start out with a manual switch to by pass all this high tech. IMO it is a matter of passenger safety. Otherwise sooner or later there is going to be deaths caused by personnel unable to restart a train.

As well the KISS system must be followed.

I doubt there's any way of avoiding the computer stuff with the tier 4 emissions.

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:32 pm

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:03 pm They dont have that problem.

I know, not windows 98 based
"stand by for technical difficulties " with the locomotive, is something passengers will hear.

The HHPs have QNX Linux

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:03 am

west point wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:33 pm As much as this will be hated it is time to ----------- Clean sheet this whole system. Start out with a manual switch to by pass all this high tech. IMO it is a matter of passenger safety. Otherwise sooner or later there is going to be deaths caused by personnel unable to restart a train.

As well the KISS system must be followed.

I doubt there's any way of avoiding the computer stuff with the tier 4 emissions.

There is, it can be operated with a simple computer on JUST the tier 4 controls. The NCDOT F59s work this way. They are regular F59s with added Tier4 stuff. But alas, that doesnt make Progress Rail or GE any money

Unfortunately this whole world is placing too much blind faith in computers. Who writes these codes? More often than not it is someone who does not even know the business. Shuttig down a completely good system because of some glich and not able to restart a peerfectly good machine that is just a bit off is going to kill passengers on some stranded freezing weather or desert heat.

Will it be changed no way. Just look at the 737MAX fiasco. Those 2 planes should still be flying. AFAIK the system was never activated to save a plane. If it could just have been turned off until fixed they would have been flying without any problem. This average pilot could have had no difficulty but no the nerds know better, I had a friend at United long retired who flew the A319 A321 family. It had a quirk that Airbus would not acknowledge so he knew the circuit breaker to pull that would disable the false problem and had to use it a couple times.

Mr ApproachMedium,

Can Amtrak say to Siemens that all those updates are done, and now they are required to start from scratch and if the motors don't work together they will issues fines...and maybe replace de bus I/O for an analog version?

Mr. (Officer/Captain?) West Point, this is long and WAAAAY off topic at a rail discussion forum, but it does relate to software and proper training of users. In this case two different users were playing with 346 human lives:

New York Times Magazine

Here is the Fair Use key takeaway drawing on the point immediately made:

None of the Bali crew have been named, and access to them has been blocked. The airplane took off at 10:20 p.m. with 189 people aboard, or 190 if the ghost in the cockpit is included. Immediately after liftoff, the captain’s airspeed indication failed, airspeed-disagreement and altitude-disagreement warnings appeared on his flight display and his stick shaker began to rattle the controls in warning of an imminent stall.....Finally the ghost in the jump seat intervened. It is impossible to know if he was a better airman than the pilots in the front or simply had the advantage of an overview. Either way, he recommended the obvious — shutting off the electric trim by flipping the cutout switches. The captain flipped the switches, the trim stopped running away and the MCAS was disabled. It was that easy.

With the captain’s stick shaker continuing to rattle and the trim switches set to the off (cutout) position, the crew flew to Jakarta without further issue, adjusting trim as sometimes necessary by use of the manual trim wheels mounted on both sides of the central pedestal, and landed just before midnight.

All told, it was "criminal" on the part of Boeing to have sold this aircraft to airlines such as the Lion Air's in this world, as distinct from the United's, on their word that no additional "sim" time would be needed to qualify aircrews on the MAX.

Finally, looking forward to Jan 21, when I will have my first Flight on a MAX; ORD-MIA.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 1:19 am

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:03 am

west point wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:33 pm As much as this will be hated it is time to ----------- Clean sheet this whole system. Start out with a manual switch to by pass all this high tech. IMO it is a matter of passenger safety. Otherwise sooner or later there is going to be deaths caused by personnel unable to restart a train.

As well the KISS system must be followed.

I doubt there's any way of avoiding the computer stuff with the tier 4 emissions.

There is, it can be operated with a simple computer on JUST the tier 4 controls. The NCDOT F59s work this way. They are regular F59s with added Tier4 stuff. But alas, that doesnt make Progress Rail or GE any money

Perhaps desire to reduce fuel usage is another reason for the more complicated setups. But it obviously seems to come as a cost as we're seeing.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 1:15 pm
Most of what goes wrong with ACS64s puts them in the shop at night or ties them up over the weekend. We usually have 15-25 ACS shopped a weekend for various failures, problems, CMs etc.

The software issues are usually the only variable, currently we have 3 active main versions of software for the ACS 64. Under that, there are probably 10 or 20 different sub revisions. Those 3 active versions are NOT compatible with each other for double heading.

How in the heck can there be that much ifferences of ACS-64s? Why aren't all using just one version? This just points out that if all these problems are not consolidated then Amtrak needs a way to bypass these problems.

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Sun Dec 25, 2022 1:16 am

scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:32 pm

ApproachMedium wrote: ↑Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:03 pm They dont have that problem.

I know, not windows 98 based
"stand by for technical difficulties " with the locomotive, is something passengers will hear.

The HHPs have QNX Linux

Is that from factory, or later?
I had recollection of them running windows, at one point.

Gilbert B Norman wrote::
All told, it was "criminal" on the part of Boeing to have sold this aircraft to airlines such as the Lion Air's in this world, as distinct from the United's, on their word that no additional "sim" time would be needed to qualify aircrews on the MAX.

It's not the manufacturers responsibility to tell the airline how much training is required... that falls to the regulator and the airline.

Plus, at least one of those two were leased, so Boeing may not have had any involvement in defining the training.

People are quick to blame Boeing for both of these accidents, but arguably the standards pilot training at the airlines involved are just as responsible if not more so.

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