Superliner Replacement - Bilevel or Single Level from a different prospective.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:33 am As you might know, Mr. Norman, the newest Ultradomes do have elevators so that is doable. As far as the "topple" issue, I do not have any details on the center of gravity ...lI would guess the Ultra domes are just as stable if not more so than the Superliners but since one has never toppled over (thank the Rail Gods) I don't know.

OK Mr. Trainguy, the Ultradomes sold to operators marketing excursions, as distinct from trnasportation, well and good.

But why should Amtrak be exposed to the additional maintenance costs that the elevators represent. Lest we forget, when Mr. Anderson put his four stripes in the left hand seat at 1 Mass, he stated that Amtrak was in the transportation business. Let's accept that people can be more readily transported about the entire system in single level cars - and as a history of incidents have shown, in a somewhat higher degree of safety (grant you; 106 in a 40 can topple an A-I).

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:07 am *SNIP*

Lest we forget, Superliners have shown a tendency to "topple" a bit quicker than single-level cars. They also have ADA issues possibly requiring an elevator in each car to be deemed compliant.

The Superliners have a lower center of gravity than the Amfleets due to heavy equipment (water tanks, A/C/ units, etc) being placed lower and between the trucks.

Mr. Matt W, anyone about to suggest making up some trains of A-I's, send them off to Hyder, Crescent City, Joplin, and Mendon, recreate the conditions at each site, and see what happens?

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:38 am Mr. Matt W, anyone about to suggest making up some trains of A-I's, send them off to Hyder, Crescent City, Joplin, and Mendon, recreate the conditions at each site, and see what happens?

Just use previous derailments. Back in the 80s the State House , a F40 and four amfleets hit a dump truck at speed. The F40 remained up right but three of the four single level Amfleets were on their side in the ditch.

Look at the Nighjets as to replacement for Superliner. The nightjets have a slumber coach like car that is pseudo bilevel. More sleep options than at present. A Bombardier Multi level may work but the ceiling will be lower than on an Amfleet or Superliner. The possibility of LD fleet and corridor fleet being essentially the same and with a product that will be sold for decades may be too much of Amtrak to pass up Siemens.

As pointed out before Ultra domes types could be use on Auto Train (2x25 ), Sunset (3x8 ) , and coast starlight (4x8). Those 3 routes would require 50 + 24+ 32 respectively = 106 cars. As 20% spares = 126 cars. Now if Sunset went daily even more needed unless Eagle becomes the train and Sunset originates at SAS. ??

The same time they were being built some way could be found to solve the CHI cleearance problems. Remember CHI will have to raise clearances if CAT is ever added to CHI US. It may be very complicated.

One unknown. Does the Amtrak contracts have a car gross weight payment system? After the CN axel count fiasco who knows ?

Apparently Stadler built ten Ultradomes for Rocky Mountaineer using the Colorado Railcar concept, so it could be done, but those are 18' 2" tall, which is 2' taller than a Superliner.

They're larger than Plate F (16'11") , smaller than Plate H (20' 2").

How many lines with passenger traffic can't accommodate double-stacks?

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Oct 28, 2022 1:00 am Apparently Stadler built ten Ultradomes for Rocky Mountaineer using the Colorado Railcar concept, so it could be done, but those are 18' 2" tall, which is 2' taller than a Superliner.

They're larger than Plate F (16'11") , smaller than Plate H (20' 2").

How many lines with passenger traffic can't accommodate double-stacks?

Out west, most lines can accommodate double stack containers, but that does not mean every station can. Chicago Union Station can not, and since most western Amtrak trains terminate in Chicago, the Ultradomes are too tall.

I suppose Amtrak could buy and run a few Ultrawides on trains that avoid Chicago, but why? Any double level car, such as Superliners, to be a large enough fleet to make the effort worthwhile, will have to fit into Chicago's Union Station.

frequentflyer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:23 pm Look at the Nighjets as to replacement for Superliner.

Mr. Flyer, here's all you could ever ask about the Night Jet equipment OBB has on order:

https://www.nightjet.com/en/komfortkate ... generation

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2022/09/i ... er-trains/

Amtrak has clearly decided that their foray into the Economy Sleeper market is limited to the existing Roomette. While of course there has been much discussion here and other sites regarding Amtrak offering a Couchette type product. Obviously pre-Amtrak, more roads than not chose to stay away from such. Other than the eighteen Budd Slumbercoaches, any such "experiments" flopped (including "my MILW's" Touralux cars).

One night in a Couchette (Madrid to Sevilla, May '90) was all I ever needed to say "been there done that".

However, I suppose that if the Night Train was to make a "comeback", it would be sponsored by Austria. They have a 374 mile (Bregenz-Vienna) East-West line haul, and they never will have an HSR system beyond their present 142mph max (they have their "Gretas" too).

But at the moment, the NJ fleet is the pre-existing DB (and maybe SNCF) cars all dolled up in a NightJet livery.

Finally, I've searched, but Mr. Google cannot locate a site such as On Track On Line covering Night Jet equipment.

west point wrote: ↑Thu Oct 27, 2022 11:17 pm As pointed out before Ultra domes types could be use on Auto Train (2x25 ), Sunset (3x8 ) , and coast starlight (4x8). Those 3 routes would require 50 + 24+ 32 respectively = 106 cars. As 20% spares = 126 cars. Now if Sunset went daily even more needed unless Eagle becomes the train and Sunset originates at SAS. ??

One thing to note is that the Ultra Domes would have much greater capacity.

So figure coach pax approx:
Single Level 60 / Superliner 74 / Ultra Dome 116 (? )

Sleeper pax:
Viewliner II 30 max / Superliner 42 max / Ultra Dome 52 (? - losing four roomettes for bathrooms)

These are rough guesses. But you probably can figure that Amtrak could get away with less equipment per train . . . fewer cars or increased capacity (i.e. revenue). Also maybe one engine per shortened consist? Overall how much does this reduce maintenance per trainset/locomotives overall?

Just food for thought.

UltraDome is a patented product design. However, do not think the Stadler design is.

https://www.stadlerrail.com/media/pdf/wrm0816e.pdf

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 11:10 am

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:28 am Amtrak does not understand the concept of sections. Full stop.

Auto train could easily be two sections.

It takes a long time to make up the Auto Train as it is. There really is no room for a second section to be assembled especially with the involved auto loading process.

A completely separate train to New Jersey, maybe leaving earlier in the day, would be great. I am in Florida now and so many people here say that the drive to Virginia is boring but the easiest part of the journey. It's the drive north of Lorton that they want to avoid so they will not take the Auto Train for that reason. CSX clearance maps do not show autorack service through Philadelphia yet but I believe they are working on it.

Maybe experiment with single-level equipment via the NEC? Are there any low-profile two-level autoracks sitting around? And to add to the fun, how about a "Dog-Park" car. You get those Northeast - Florida pet owners and you got a loyal customer for life.

First section: PASSENGER

Second section: AUTOS

That is far easier than switching a long freight onto a long passenger.

Eoleson nailed the section discussion to the wall!

Awesome. My car is on a different train than I'm on. How long do I wait for my automobile then?

The current wait for an automobile after exiting the train is < 30 minutes for the first to about 3 hours for the last (I've paid to be in the first 50 unloaded and have been lucky enough to be automobile #3 and have not paid that extra fee and been unlucky enough to have my auto be in the last rack unloaded).

I'd bet the Auto Train would be quite unpopular if people's automobiles were separately delayed.

Going through a "make a generic Amtrak consist based on the Bombardier Multilevel" exercise and it's looking like I may be losing sleeping capacity. I have to think of a better design for the rooms and roomettes, and see where I can squeeze an inch or two to get more room.

Still, 14' 6" can go anywhere.