• PSR and Amtrak

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by John_Perkowski
 
ADMIN NOTE

This is the PSR and AMTRAK thread, not a general discussion of PSR.

Please stay on the topic.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
The "Big Three" - CSX, NS, UP - whom have implemented operating practices associated with "The Gospel According to Saint Elwood", first known as Precision Railroading, and later as Precision Scheduled Railroading, or PSR, all have stakeholders to whom they must answer.

There is a "pecking order" within those stakeholders.

First, so far as I'm concerned, is the investors who have staked their capital in the expectation that a company's manager will bring them a sufficient return on their investment by having the present value of expected earnings into perpetuity continually rise - after all that represents the "market cap". That present value is of course affected by the market interest rate (usually defined by 10yr US Treasury Notes). Yields for such go up, down goes that present value and v.v.

Obviously the shippers are stakeholders and are up there with investors, who obviously are aware any defections to another road or mode would adversely affect that noted present value and market cap. Shippers plan their production and distribution around timely handling of lading be the railroads. Think the "just in time" practices of the auto industry, for if hypothetical engines and transmissions assembled in Detroit or Windsor do not arrive in Kansas City "more or less on time", F-150's will stop rolling off the line. That will make King Henry's descendants back in Dearborn, uh "unhappy". if a major shipper decided to "go elsewhere" that would be a "wake up" in Atlanta, JAX, or Omaha, resulting in a "reassessment" of PSR operating practices.

Employees, and their representatives, too are stakeholders. Management should be willing to listen to the likes of Messrs. Junkie and Spatch that current operating practice are adversely affecting the "fluidity" of the railroad. The railroad is drawbars and draft gears "on the ground" and not some oversized Fortnight gameboard in a year round 72dg environment.

Finally are "interlopers" and by that I mean Amtrak or any other public agency that by means of enacted legislation has required a road to make their facilities available to them - and all too often for some kind of "bargain basement" remuneration. Honestly, they best take what the roads can offer which is "for better or worse, this is how we choose to run our road. We will get you over it, and despite what your advocates like to rant, will not willfully delay you. But our operations come first, as we have stakeholders who do more for us than do you."

disclaimer: author long UNP (previously held BNI, CSX, KSU, NSC; no longer account tender offer or "sector overweight")
Last edited by Gilbert B Norman on Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
  by Railjunkie
 
Greg Moore wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:23 am
eolesen wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:30 pm CSX average speed was up by 12% from 2018 to 2019 (latest data available)... NS was up 17%.

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Average speed or velocity?
My understanding is speeds haven't changed (they're still governed by whatever the track is rated for) but velocity overall has because loads are being delayed less in yards, etc. But that would have zero impact on Amtrak.

I do know there's been talk (I think the Times Union had an article recently bylined by Chris Anderson) talking about the worries of CSX pulling out sidings on the Water Level Route and making Amtrak's times even worse than the yare now.
CSX has been running PSR for awhile now on the WLR, and as far as I'm aware, Amtrak's OTP has gotten worse, not better.
Sidings OOS by bulletin order last week or the week before. Speeds on the Mohawk havent changed in years still 50 mph frt 60mph IM 79mph pas. So its velocity they must be talking about. There is fat in all the schedules currently. Example AMT 64 is on time you could sit in ALB for close to an hour. If and when CSX traffic returns. Protects for the train crews out west could be a thing due to the short turns.

Figures never lie, liars always figure... That about sums up my opinion of PSR
  by eolesen
 
Not velocity. Not speed limits. Average speed.

(Train miles ÷ elapsed minutes) x 60

Improving by 12% would imply fewer yellows...

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  by STrRedWolf
 
Congress has asked the General Accounting Office for a study into PSR and affects into everything.

Apparently it's not only Amtrak but the shippers as well that are getting negatively affected. I think to fully get PSR's impact on Amtrak, you got to study the whole thing.
  by eolesen
 
Shipper complaints are largely about demurrage charges, not reliability.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Mr. Olesen, privately owned cars, such as GATX, are exempt from railroad assessed charges for excess detention by a shipper or consignee, or otherwise known as demurrage.

Next time down at trackside, be sure to note how many cars in the consist have "X" reporting marks.

That of course does not mean a shipper or consignee can unreasonably detain these cars, but the detention charges are a matter between the owner and those parties and outside the scope of a railroad tariff.
  by ExCon90
 
In any event, demurrage charges are about the only element completely under control of the shipper -- just unload the car and release it to the railroad within the free time and there's no demurrage. If the shipper's siding has a limited capacity and more cars arrive than there is room for on the siding that obviously becomes an issue, but I don't think it's a general problem, particularly since Staggers, as a railroad can now waive the demurrage in such circumstances if bunching of the cars occurred in transit -- in ICC days that would have been considered an unlawful rebate.
  by electricron
 
eolesen wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:36 pm Shipper complaints are largely about demurrage charges, not reliability.
Great, how does shipping charges affect Amtrak and its passengers one little bit?
Please explain why shipping charges PSR debate should be argued in the Amtrak sub forum?
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Ron, let it be noted that if a shipper of consequence fails to release cars at a scheduled time, that will upset a PSR model.

What if a "Manifest" later than that scheduled must stop to pick up late released csrs. What if an extra train need be called to yank those because the shipper has another cut of inbounds. That injects an additional train into the "Precision" model.

Any around here who "railroad on the ground" - and even me from the Non-Agreement "office boy" positions I held during my eleven yesr career - know that railroading is not that "Fortnite game board in a 72dg.environment".
  by markhb
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:12 pm
J.D. Lang wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:41 pm One question I have, how many miles of second track would an Amtrak train traveling at 79mph take up trying to pass a 16,000 ft. manifest traveling at 50. If the dispatcher allows the move he is tying up a lot of RR. and stopping opposing moves. That's a no no with PSR.
Not only that, some sidings can't handle the long trains. UP is hauling one that takes 3 hours to get past a siding holding an Amtrak train. Not good.
To answer Mr. Lang's math question, with an extra 1000 feet thrown in for the length of the Amtrak train plus interlockings, just over 8 3/4 miles of double-track which would be covered in roughly 400 seconds.
  by eolesen
 
electricron wrote:
eolesen wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 10:36 pm Shipper complaints are largely about demurrage charges, not reliability.
Great, how does shipping charges affect Amtrak and its passengers one little bit?
Please explain why shipping charges PSR debate should be argued in the Amtrak sub forum?
Totally agree. It's off track but apparently not being dealt with as aggressively as some other topics have been.

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  by STrRedWolf
 
Here's the thing: PSR would be great for Amtrak if it was being done right.

All signs say it's not being done right. The current infrastructure cannot handle the lengths that PSR requires, and accidents are more likely to occur with said lengths. This causes delays both in shipments being sent/received and in Amtrak trains becoming later and later because they're forced to wait for these lengthy trains to pass.

Needless to say, it supposedly affects the bottom line (and thus investors) at the expense of everything else. That "everything else" is getting the attention of Congress.

If PSR were being done right, with the infrastructure in place to do it, then you wouldn't have these issues in the first place... and Amtrak's LD trains would run on time all the time.

I'd ask for popcorn but I think it's on the train still...
  by Pensyfan19
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:00 pm Here's the thing: PSR would be great for Amtrak if it was being done right.

All signs say it's not being done right. The current infrastructure cannot handle the lengths that PSR requires, and accidents are more likely to occur with said lengths. This causes delays both in shipments being sent/received and in Amtrak trains becoming later and later because they're forced to wait for these lengthy trains to pass.

Needless to say, it supposedly affects the bottom line (and thus investors) at the expense of everything else. That "everything else" is getting the attention of Congress.

If PSR were being done right, with the infrastructure in place to do it, then you wouldn't have these issues in the first place... and Amtrak's LD trains would run on time all the time.

I'd ask for popcorn but I think it's on the train still...
Another thing I'd like to mention is that one of the main causes of Amtrak's delays are due to interference from freight traffic (or in some cases, between other Amtrak trains!) I remember back in 2015 when I was taking the Lincoln Service from Chicago to St. Louis, my train had to wait about 10-20 minutes for the Texas Eagle to pass my train going southbound since most if not all of the route is single tracked, even in areas where there used to be a second track or there is plenty of room to do so. This is something which I feel prevents passenger routes from reaching their full potential (and from what I can tell so far, I don't think Illinois' new high speed rail commission will be considering) and a lack of double track main lines would inevitably cause bottlenecks and hours-long traffic delays.
  by west point
 
It is time for some of the $28B going to freight RRs to get rid of some of the bottlenecks.