PSR and Amtrak

Maybe if precision meant something , then yes, it would benefit Amtrak .
In a peverse way , PSR may benefit Amtrak , as the railroads bleed market share, while truck's growth is only constrained by lack of Drivers. Still the operating ratio looks great , investors are happy , but its a short term win on a declining market share.
a proper PSR system could benefit both freight and passenger. Maybe when the railroads have cut to the bone they will look to grow, and then they will need to be precise, which will work . but the Class one 's age old problem of not been customer driven will have to change.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:30 pm CSX average speed was up by 12% from 2018 to 2019 (latest data available)... NS was up 17%.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

When your rididng yellows for 130 miles @ 30mph or less it sucks. Been there done it bought and sold that T shirt too many times. But according to your figures I could now I could possibly get a block or two of clear signals on day like I just described. PSR wont allow a disp to throw a switch to get me at 79 mph around a 40mph train why??? IDK. In the above how many trains did I pass going in the opposite direction?? I will give you a hint close your eyes and what do you see???

Why that seems so impossible for a railroad to accomplish is boggling. Go look at old timetables, and you'll see freight running on schedules prior to the 1960's, but 40 and 50 years later, it's impossible? That's inexplicable.

In the old days it was out of necessity because most railroads ran by timetable and train order, which worked better when the majority of trains were on a schedule so meets could be more or less predictable. With CTC and other modern forms of dispatching, and the universal use of radios this is not as much of an issue.

CTC and having more modern tools hasn't necessarily equated to being more reliable. CTC's ceryainly been safer and allows for flexibility when things go off schedule, but a timetable as a baseline will always set up the day to run smoother.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Ok, this is going to be one of those extra long replies by RRspatch that I've probably gotten known for when I do bother to reply. But hey, I'm retired so I've got the time.

This is a story about BNSF, PSR lite and the Southwest division.

First some background -

The last five years of my railroad career I worked the Belen Terminal job 3rd shift. Belen is a major refueling and inspection point on the southern trans-con just south of Albuquerque. There are eight fueling and inspection tracks with four in each direction. They range from 8200' to 8500'. The four eastbound tracks have there pumps at the east-end and the four westbound tracks at the west-end. The whole setup dates back to the days when trains averaged between 6 and 8 thousand feet long and before distributed power. Trains with power on the end (or in the middle, more on that later) are fueled by tanker trucks. Belen has between 6 and 8 tanker trucks to do this.

Now just after I bid the job back in 2012 some management drone decided to start running "10K" (10,000' long) trains. This of course was followed by "12K' and in the end "16K" trains. Belen because of the limited number of tanker trucks can only handle two over 8K trains at a time. Locomotive placement on these trains varies by length. The 10K trains have 3 on the head-end and one on the rear (3x1). The 12K trains are 3x2 and the 16K are 4x3x2, that's right, three mid train. The power in the middle and at the end has to be fueled by tanker truck. I should add that there are other DP equipped trains such as coal, grain, ethanol and coiled steel that also need a tanker truck to fuel the rear units.

At first a handful of 10K trains per day wasn't a problem. The problems started when the bean counters said "lets start running 12K and 16K trains and a whole LOT more of them". I'm sure even the non railroaders out there can guess what happened next. Train crews dying on the HOS before they could get into Belen due to the terminal not being able to handle that many long trains back to back. This resulted in LOTS of dogcatchs (relief crews) and taxies being called to drag trains into the terminal. A few times it got so bad it basically melted down the Southwest division. The really bizarre part of this whole long story is this ... Yes it did cut "crew starts" by combining trains into long monster trains but at the same time it blew the number of dogcatch crews and taxies need through the roof. The whole thing is like squeezing a balloon at the crew start end and having it bulge out at the dogcatch end. This is the point where PSR proponents get to jump up and down waving their arms shouting about how they've cut crew starts. The truly funny part is that on BNSF (and I suspect other railroads as well) the "crew start" budget is separate from the "dogcatch" budget. So yes, it REALLY does look good on paper but operational wise not so good. The whole thing (PSR lite in BNSF's case) is a farce designed to please Wall Street and is basically making railroading a lot worse.

Since this is the Amtrak forum I'm sure there's been many cases of Amtrak stuck behind trains waiting to get through a terminal congested with monster trains or creeping along behind an underpowered 10K, 12K or 16K (or now maybe 20K) train. I'm sure A4 has taken a hit on the Gallup subdivision trying to get to Dalies to hang a left (to ABQ) due to an eastbound "clusterf**k" at Belen. But hey, like I said it REALLY looks good on paper .....

BTW - I have fellow dispatcher friends at Jacksonville (CSXT) who tell me the same thing. It's NOT working.

Happily retired since 6/4/17.

A quick follow up to my long reply above ....

I see NS has piled them up again at Horseshoe Curve. Looks like a "stringline" or perhaps poor train makeup. I guess running monster trains over the mountain is ok if 9 out of 10 trains make it. I'm sure Hulcher is happy with all the business of late. I was once told they charge $10,000 just to answer the phone and those phones have been ringing off the hook of late.

It looks like Congress will soon be looking into PSR. No, it's NOT the Amtrak supporters nor the railfans that are pushing this, it's the SHIPPERS. Looking at all those FedEx trailers laying on their sides at Horseshoe curve I know of one unhappy shipper.

https://www.supplychaindive.com/news/Ho ... ts/600172/

The Belen experience is interesting, but BNSF doesn't follow PSR, so how is it relevant to what the PSR roads are doing?

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:22 pm The Belen experience is interesting, but BNSF doesn't follow PSR, so how is it relevant to what the PSR roads are doing?

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

BNSF follows what can best be described as PSR Lite. The main thing being cutting crew starts by running extra long monster trains. The funny (sad) part is after you factor in dogcatch and taxi costs there really is no savings. Of course since they're separate budgets the cut in "crew starts" does look good ... at least on paper. When I started on that job in 2012 almost all trains made it into the terminal on their HOS. Now it's between 40 and 60 percent depending on traffic volume and how well the terminal is running. One car inspector having a bad day can bring the terminal to it's knees.

You can't just run long trains, you have to adopt the other parts as well wrt scheduling... buying off road tires doesn't turn a 2WD minivan into a 4WD truck.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

I feel this might be related to the topic. It mentions how UP adopted PSR and how accidents similar to the ones experienced by NS occurred. This video also mentions the various downsides of PSR, stating how it only satisfies the cost cutting efforts which benefit shareholders.

If anything, I feel that the effects of PSR are directly related to Amtrak's service, as well as their delays. Fewer tracks=more bottlenecks=more delays. Longer trains=more time waiting for freight trains to pass=more delays. I would also like to mention that NS has received the lowest score in Amtrak's report card, while BNSF received the second highest, only under CP.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:03 pm You can't just run long trains, you have to adopt the other parts as well wrt scheduling... buying off road tires doesn't turn a 2WD minivan into a 4WD truck.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Running extra long monster trains is one of the hallmarks of PSR and is generally the most noticeable to the general public when one blocks a crossing. Like I said I refer to what BNSF is doing as PSR Lite. The new CEO at BNSF has stated that PSR is not what they want to do ... 10K, 12K and 16K trains notwithstanding.

Another aspect of PSR is closing/combining terminals and selling off the land (asset stripping). The UP tried this here in Texas in the late 90's after taking over the SP. I'm sure some of you remember the great Texas meltdown in 1997 when UP stood for Unlimited Parking. Sadly it seems railroaders have short term memories.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:03 pm You can't just run long trains, you have to adopt the other parts as well wrt scheduling... buying off road tires doesn't turn a 2WD minivan into a 4WD truck.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Thats what I meant by the lack of precision . The concept is great , but they have focused soley on cost cutting , and not precision or customer service.
That came after Harrison left on the Canadian Railroads, maybe the USA rods will follow suit.
Once again , Amtrak is the Canary in the coalmine , if the passenger trains wern't been delayed , i would say the precision has been achieved.

David Benton wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:09 pm
Thats what I meant by the lack of precision . The concept is great , but they have focused soley on cost cutting , and not precision or customer service.
That came after Harrison left on the Canadian Railroads, maybe the USA rods will follow suit.
Once again , Amtrak is the Canary in the coalmine , if the passenger trains wern't been delayed , i would say the precision has been achieved.

As someone who worked in the industry for over 40 years on BOTH the passenger and freight side I say the words "Precision" and "Railroading" don't belong in the same sentence. There's nothing "precision" about it. It's just cost cutting for the sake of making Wall Street happy. It will not end well.

Train length got me thinking of another night a really cold one negative number cold. On my return from SYR on AMT 64 I hear the disp call Q2?? gotta hold you at CP188. The reply was ok Billy but they told us when we left not to touch the air I think they are worried about a "kicker". Then there were questions about length ( 220ish cars) and power, just enough. Well why did they let you out of the yard then??? IDK Billy... Anyway I was able to get by him but AMT 283/49 weren't so lucky and that was just our side I think that pronged 8 or 9 of theirs too. Plus that conductor walking that train in a minus 20 wind chill looking for a brake issue. Break the train in two so it cost you a extra crew and a couple of locos might have been worth it.

In the above for the non railroader cold air doesn't like to compress and can cause all sorts of hell with braking systems in the winter. That thing could have sat for multiple hours pumping air in the yard just to do a brake test, thus the crew may have spent much of there time just waiting around doing nothing.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:30 pm CSX average speed was up by 12% from 2018 to 2019 (latest data available)... NS was up 17%.

Sent from my SM-G981U using Tapatalk

Average speed or velocity?
My understanding is speeds haven't changed (they're still governed by whatever the track is rated for) but velocity overall has because loads are being delayed less in yards, etc. But that would have zero impact on Amtrak.

I do know there's been talk (I think the Times Union had an article recently bylined by Chris Anderson) talking about the worries of CSX pulling out sidings on the Water Level Route and making Amtrak's times even worse than the yare now.
CSX has been running PSR for awhile now on the WLR, and as far as I'm aware, Amtrak's OTP has gotten worse, not better.