Trolleys for Route 23

Are we absolutely sure that the "23 line" will never see trolley service?

Maybe they will run an amusement ride (vintage trolley) there as opposed to mass transit ("light rail"). Requires less robust infrastructure such as heavier weight rails.

I was downtown yesterday, and down around the Convention Ctr the rails seems to be in relatively good shape. Is the wire currently energized?

PullmanCo wrote: A double-parked truck also blocks trucks and buses from passing it. Trucks are not supposed to be double-parked, nor are any other vehicle.

nope, they can use the other lane, as can a trolleybus.

Suburban Station wrote:Ah, the "he may not live here" nonsequitur. One does not have to live in Philly to comment on the public transportation there.

that's true, bt it would help you in understanding traffic patters and the reality on the ground in certain areas.

PullmanCo wrote: Double-parking on the trolley tracks (yes, of Route 23) is not a common (or even noteworthy) phenomenon, despite all the talk about it in this thread. And if it happens, surely it happens on all SEPTA trolley lines?

few trolley lines are on narrow congested streets like the 23.

PullmanCo wrote:Please define "zero transit benefit".

It's pretty obvious what it means, please show what transit benefit it does have.

PullmanCo wrote:And please show all this "congestion" that would block trolley tracks, because I've never seen it.

how can I show it to you? come down and spend some time here, you can see it. I can look out my window, how about you?

PullmanCo wrote: They are not twice as wide. The occasional exception are major crosstown thoroughfares such as 16th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th and so on, but most of the streets (versus the avenues) are quite narrow and you would be lucky to be driving on a street with two lanes in one direction (most of the streets are one-way).

yeah, those avenues are so narrow compared to 11th st.

Suburban Station wrote: Plus I don't see NYC building a new trolley line, I seem them finally building a replacement for the old second ave elevated

Funny how nobody else sees that. Plenty of talk, but endless delays.[/quote]
welcome to America. how are those street running trolleys so oft talked about for manhattan coming along?

The only talk of light rail recently being built was on the west side, as a connector for the Javitz and/or Jets stadium. Both were killed, yet there is still discussion of extending the 7 train instead of a light rail connection.

Suburban Station wrote:

PullmanCo wrote: A double-parked truck also blocks trucks and buses from passing it. Trucks are not supposed to be double-parked, nor are any other vehicle.

nope, they can use the other lane, as can a trolleybus

What other lane? There aren't lane markers on 11th and 12th Streets, and there are no passing lanes on Germantown Avenue.

The point remains that the truck, vehicle, whatever is not supposed to be double-parked.

Ah, the "he may not live here" nonsequitur. One does not have to live in Philly to comment on the public transportation there.

that's true, b(u)t it would help you in understanding traffic patter(n)s and the reality on the ground in certain areas

Traffic patterns are not forces of nature. They can be altered, and violators of traffic law can be punished. That's why we have traffic police.

PullmanCo wrote: Double-parking on the trolley tracks (yes, of Route 23) is not a common (or even noteworthy) phenomenon, despite all the talk about it in this thread. And if it happens, surely it happens on all SEPTA trolley lines?

few trolley lines are on narrow congested streets like the 23

You speak of "congested streets" as something that cannot be changed (again). It's not "congested streets" that impedes trolley operation in particular, besides, and certainly not more than any other mode of public transportation. The Route 23 bus has no advantage over the trolley if the problem is "congestion" versus "double-parked vehicles", remember (and has no advantage over trolleys with the latter, either).

PullmanCo wrote:Please define "zero transit benefit".

It's pretty obvious what it means, please show what transit benefit it does have

Please don't be evasive. The advantages of trolleys have been outlined in this thread already and don't bear repeating. They are significant versus the bus, and still significant versus the trolleybus (which would need added infrastructure as already noted).

PullmanCo wrote:And please show all this "congestion" that would block trolley tracks, because I've never seen it.

how can I show it to you? come down and spend some time here, you can see it. I can look out my window, how about you?

What did I just tell you? If I say that I have not seen it, it is because I have been there already to not see it.

PullmanCo wrote:They are not twice as wide. The occasional exception are major crosstown thoroughfares such as 16th, 23rd, 34th, 42nd, 57th and so on, but most of the streets (versus the avenues) are quite narrow and you would be lucky to be driving on a street with two lanes in one direction (most of the streets are one-way).

yeah, those avenues are so narrow compared to 11th st

That's why I did not say "avenues"; I said streets (versus the avenues). Streets run crosstown in Manhattan; avenues run north-south. The majority of streets in Manhattan are as narrow as 11th and 12th in Philadelphia.

Suburban Station wrote: Plus I don't see NYC building a new trolley line, I seem them finally building a replacement for the old second ave elevated

Funny how nobody else sees that. Plenty of talk, but endless delays.

welcome to America. how are those street running trolleys so oft talked about for manhattan coming along?

Nonsequitur. The infrastructure for the Route 23 trolley already exists, if not the rolling stock as yet. Not to mention, the 42nd Street crosstown light rail would not be street-running in the same manner as SEPTA's 23; it would occupy the bus lanes where routes M16, M42 (which it would technically replace) and M104 run right now as reserved rights of way.

As for the 2nd Avenue subway, that'll get built right after the first dedicated high-speed rail line between New York and Chicago does, let's put it that way.

I know I am resurrecting a long dead thread, but it is better than starting a new one.

On my afternoon walk at lunch today, I noticed that the wire for the Route 23 trolley no longer exists above 11th Street at Walnut. It appears to still be hanging north of Sansom, and south of Locust. How long before all the infrastructure is gone?

R3 Passenger wrote:I know I am resurrecting a long dead thread, but it is better than starting a new one.

On my afternoon walk at lunch today, I noticed that the wire for the Route 23 trolley no longer exists above 11th Street at Walnut. It appears to still be hanging north of Sansom, and south of Locust. How long before all the infrastructure is gone?

That's a relatively short stretch. Is it possible that there was some construction at Jefferson that necessitated the clipping of the wire or (more likely) that an overheight truck took it down at some point? Are the support wires still up?

glennk419 wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:I know I am resurrecting a long dead thread, but it is better than starting a new one.

On my afternoon walk at lunch today, I noticed that the wire for the Route 23 trolley no longer exists above 11th Street at Walnut. It appears to still be hanging north of Sansom, and south of Locust. How long before all the infrastructure is gone?

That's a relatively short stretch. Is it possible that there was some construction at Jefferson that necessitated the clipping of the wire or (more likely) that an overheight truck took it down at some point? Are the support wires still up?

Support wires are gone too. They look like they were cut right from the loops that hold the support wires to the poles. The wire at 12th and Walnut was still up, so I don't think it was due to "construction" of anything.

It has now been five years since this thread began--- bottomline is there will be no restoration of streetcar service to Route 23. SEPTA never intended to restore rail service to either 23 or 56. And the photo which prompted the thread is actually a "what if" photo by Phillytrolley.Org imagining what an Ex Kansas City PCC car would look like if it was rebuilt in the same manner as the PCC II's. That web site dubbed that idea as "PCC III" but no such car actually exists.

the problems for restarting streetcar service in the 23 are numerous. several long stretches of paved over track, completely removed rails on the germantown ave bridge over the csx tracks near wayne junction, missing diamond crossings at girard ave, missing switches and mates at bainbridge st, gaps in the overhead, etc. nevermind the fact that it's been re-routed down at the bottom to connect with the oregon BSS station. these prob;ems are big, but surmountable. the problem is inepta needs to buy at least 30 new cars for it, and either build a new depot or completely rehab germantown depot to put them in. untill they shake some major dough out of the state or feds, none of this is going to happen. nevermind the fact that septa just doesn't like trolleys