Palmetto - Train 89 Incident

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Scoostraw, train 89, Palmetto, handles local passengers Ny-Wash. At Wash, something is done that Amtrak is loathe to do - cut cars at an intermediate station.

In this case not that big a deal; the local cars are on the head and they are cut with the engine change. That is why the V-Bag is placed on the rear, as was seen in various photos of the incident.

However, Mr. Forbes mentioned being in the last car, which would not appear to be a local car (unless Amtrak is selling NYP-DC seats in the through cars... or would the last car have been a business class car?).

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Scoostraw, train 89, Palmetto, handles local passengers Ny-Wash. At Wash, something is done that Amtrak is loathe to do - cut cars at an intermediate station.

In this case not that big a deal; the local cars are on the head and they are cut with the engine change. That is why the V-Bag is placed on the rear, as was seen in various photos of the incident.

Forbes was in the last car of the train. So how does your post affect what I stated?

Does Forbes have a PV?

glennk419 wrote:The LORAM ballast vac was on Track 2. Train and backhoe were on Track 3.

You're absolutely right. I stand corrected. Telephoto shots taken from behind (North) of the accident show this.

Train is currently sitting in yard next to 30th street. Engine is there too and appears to have been moved with the rest of the train. Shop diesel on end of the train.

While the investigation has barely started to sort things out. On the face of it all it seems to me to be a very confusing situation at a shift change with at least two tracks involved. To be properly done by the rules the foreman should have a Form D for the OOS track and some sort of official "foul time " for the other track. Possibly a sloppy turnover at the change and certainly a miscommunication for the track 3 foul time being lifted. I wonder what the CETC 4 dispatcher thought what was in effect at that time. So many questions and possibilities. Wouldn't rules 297 and 297a ("A" board and stop sign) be followed for fouling the track ??

Amtrak on the NEC does not use stop signs. Approach boards and Stop signs on a 135 mph railroad are a prescription for disaster. Amtrak will take a track out of service and work on it sometimes for a month or more if they are doing a tie or rail job on a long stretch of railroad. This wreck is really quite simply a foul of a live track without permission. As the NTSB stated either they fouled the track on a quickie move without permission or somebody gave them wrong instruction's leading them to believe they had foul time. One poster asked can a engineer do anything, in 8 seconds ,to increase survival in this type of incident? Throw the train in emergency, stay low and clear of the windshields hang on tight and say every prayer you know as you might be meeting The Big Man in 9 seconds.

Zeke wrote:Amtrak on the NEC does not use stop signs.

They use shunts. If the crew plans on fouling the track for more than five minutes they need to install a shunt that shorts the track circuit and provides occupancy for the signalling system. Then any approaching train will get the usual signals for when they approach occupied track ... including a restricting or stop signal protecting the occupied track.

4/5/2016
As mentioned above, the entire train (plus shop engine) was at 30th Street today.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiv ... ?id=115305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Close-up of 627-
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http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4434014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overview-
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leviramsey wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Scoostraw, train 89, Palmetto, handles local passengers Ny-Wash. At Wash, something is done that Amtrak is loathe to do - cut cars at an intermediate station.

In this case not that big a deal; the local cars are on the head and they are cut with the engine change. That is why the V-Bag is placed on the rear, as was seen in various photos of the incident.

However, Mr. Forbes mentioned being in the last car, which would not appear to be a local car (unless Amtrak is selling NYP-DC seats in the through cars... or would the last car have been a business class car?).

For what it's worth - and I'm not saying this happened - I've met folks on the platform at Wilmington who boarded at NY Penn and told me they were in the opposite end of the train from where they actually alighted. At track level in NYP, it isn't always clear to the inexperienced which direction the train will pull out. It's possible that Mr. Forbes thought he was in a different end than he thought he was. But who knows. He could have also sat in a through car and they just didn't make him move if they weren't expecting those cars to sell out before Washington.

johnnyloco wrote:4/5/2016
As mentioned above, the entire train (plus shop engine) was at 30th Street today.

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiv ... ?id=115305" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Close-up of 627-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4434018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4434014" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Overview-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPi ... id=4434017" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for those pictures. Honestly the engine doesn't look in terrible shape overall. Surprised they didn't haul it to the Wilmington shops, as they're closer and likely where a repair would be done, but I'm sure they have their reasons why it's in the Penn Coach Yard at 30th instead. Back in the January 1988 crash, which also involved MoW equipment very close to this location following operator error at Hook tower in Marcus Hook with a northbound Night Owl, AEM-7 941 slid down the embankment just south of the US 322/Commodore Barry bridge overpass, was loaded on a flatbed and taken to Wilmington for repairs.

Operational question about the incident: that morning, I was traveling from PHL to EWR (before the incident) and my parents were traveling from PHL to RTE (after it). When I checked the Amtrak alert the first message was that they were closed from Philadelphia to New York. It was like that until I was stuck on a plane for the next while starting at about noon on Sunday.

Was this an erroneous alert? Did they actually halt service from NYP to PHL? If so, why would they stop that but not service from PHL south (which seems to me to be what you'd have to stop)? Did they halt service from PHL south but not include it in the alert?

When the wreck happened, all 4 tracks are out of service,untill inspected and oked for use,first responders
are all over the scene,and it was unknown if any catenary wires were down at that point.

No. 89's equipment is in Penn coach yard at the order of the NTSB. This is the most accessible and convenient place to continue the active post accident investigation.

khecht wrote:It's possible that Mr. Forbes thought he was in a different end than he thought he was.

Wow.

So if he was in "the other end" of the train, that would mean that he was in the FIRST car - the one that was seriously damaged, with windows blown out?

No.

I am fully confident that Steve Forbes is able to ascertain - and tell us - if he was in the last car on the train or not. Especially after having to detrain after the collision.

8th Notch wrote:And what expertise do you have in accident investigation to support that statement?

Name me the last time the Feds didn't take all year to get anything done? Railroads or not. That's the way they are.