Overnight Coach Configuration Ideas

SouthernRailway wrote: Singapore Airlines provides sleeping compartments, complete with a door, in first class. It also provides lie-flat seats in business class. My relatives who fly to Asia/Pacific countries slum it in business on Singapore and are itching to go in first. Other international airlines might do the same.

Royal Emirates do . They are gaining a lot of custom down this way .
Ron , I think you are presuming most people would prefer a "cabin" to a life flat bed with some degree of privacy . I would say that is true for the older generations, but not necessarrily the younger ones , or backpacker type older ones.
If I was travelling on business, I would prefer a cabin , if I was travelling for pleasure , I would probably prefer a Lie flat bed in a more communal area.

"...there are better more comfortable solutions than a lie-flat chair.

electricron

Posts: 3173
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:35 pm

Yes, and the 24/8 slumbercoach is the best solution. Enough density to allow lower fares than sleeper, and a time proven well used solution.

Ok, I'll bite. How do you make a new Slumbercoach ADA-accessible? It seems you'd still need Bedrooms and a Handicap Bedroom on each car, so the best you could do would be a 12-6-2-1 (single, double, bedroom, h-bed) Viewliner. Maybe a better engineer than I could figure out how to make a convertible Double-to-two-Single Roomette, and also how to make a Double Roomette handicap-accessible.

On the plus side, the V-II has the ceiling height and existing windows to make it more practical. Maybe Wick will tell someone at Bear to play with the last V-prototype shell (assuming it's there.)

Not every car has to be handicap accessible, every train does. As long as there is a conventional Viewliner Sleeper car on the train, no matter how many Slumbercoaches there are, it's a handicap friendly train.

When Amtrak has enough cars to be sure a train won't leave Hialeah with three 24-8 Viewliners and no 12-2-1 Viewliner, we can talk.

We really are overthinking things here (it wouldn't be RAILROAD.NET if we didn't!) I can sympathize with wanting your own little compartment, but if 2+1 business class isn't enough for overnight coach travel, herringbone-pattern seats would be (and cheaper to build, rebuild, and maintain, even if it has no more capacity.)

mtuandrew wrote:We really are overthinking things here (it wouldn't be RAILROAD.NET if we didn't!) I can sympathize with wanting your own little compartment, but if 2+1 business class isn't enough for overnight coach travel, herringbone-pattern seats would be (and cheaper to build, rebuild, and maintain, even if it has no more capacity.)

Plenty of passengers get by with coach class seats with 2+2 seating per row, and with more rows of seats per car. Having a compartment or not isn't the issue. The issue is that lay-flat seats eat up far more space than even bunks. With bunks, you can get two bunks vertically, with lay-flat seats you can get just one seat vertically. In Viewliner sleepers, every bunk can have its own window. So where you have 2+1 lay flat seats in a car, with bunks you can get 2+2 bunks.The bunks, if we follow an India Rail examples, don't even have to be within a compartment. That's why bunks can be cheaper than lay-flat seats, why Amtrak could charge less fares for them and still make more profits from them.
The point of even using lay-flat seats charging a business class fare was to give the customer a cheaper option than buying a sleeping compartment. But the space they consume, and the fact you can not put as many of them into a car as bunks, means they should cost more than a bunk for Amtrak to provide, which means Amtrak would have to charge a higher fare for them. Congress is not all that interested subsidizing luxury.

Actually, I believe ADA regulations do require every car of a train to be accessible. Which is part of why new platforms constructed must be all-high level unless a waiver is obtained.

Let's go the the source to answer our disagreements.
https://www.ada.gov/pubs/adastatute08.htm#12162a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Sec. 12162. Intercity and commuter rail actions considered discriminatory
(a) Intercity rail transportation
(1) One car per train rule
It shall be considered discrimination for purposes of section 12132 of this title and section 794 of title 29 for a person who provides intercity rail transportation to fail to have at least one passenger car per train that is readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs, in accordance with regulations issued under section 12164 of this title, as soon as practicable, but in no event later than 5 years after July 26, 1990.
(2) New intercity cars
(A) General rule
Except as otherwise provided in this subsection with respect to individuals who use wheelchairs, it shall be considered discrimination for purposes of section 12132 of this title and section 794 of title 29 for a person to purchase or lease any new rail passenger cars for use in intercity rail transportation, and for which a solicitation is made later than 30 days after July 26, 1990, unless all such rail cars are readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities, including individuals who use wheelchairs, as prescribed by the Secretary of Transportation in regulations issued under section 12164 of this title.
(B) Special rule for single-level passenger coaches for individuals who use wheelchairs
Single-level passenger coaches shall be required to
(i) be able to be entered by an individual who uses a wheelchair;
(ii) have space to park and secure a wheelchair;
(iii) have a seat to which a passenger in a wheelchair can transfer, and a space to fold and store such passenger's wheelchair; and
(iv) have a restroom usable by an individual who uses a wheelchair, only to the extent provided in paragraph (3).

So, we're both correct in a way. Trains only require one car with wheelchairs assessibility - but all new cars must built after 1990.

So, to answer our hypertherotical slumber sleeping car scenario,it depends upon whether we use old mothballed cars or brand new cars.

While the wheelchair space must be adjacent to the designated slumber bunk, a single handicapped restroom in the car near that accessible designated bunk would meet the regulations. The wheelchair space could be placed across the aisle from the restroom with the first lower bunk being designated as the wheelchair assessable seat/bunk. So it should be quite easy to make a slumber coach wheelchair assessable.

The basic 24/8 slumbercoach design could easily be modified by adding a disabled accessible restroom and an accessible "lower single" at one end of the car, leaving the rest of the car as basically "up/down" and with the double slumbers as is at the other end of the car. This would possibly make it a 1H, 22 or 20/8 configuration, and still sell without meals for much less than View or Superliner roomettes or bedrooms.

It wold probably be cheaper for Amtrak to designate one double as ada accessible,( I assume it would pretty much have enough space) , sell it as a a single if a ADA booking is made, then can be sold as a double if not.
Did each slumber compartment have its own toilet?

No , but each car should have one if not two toilets.

Please enlighten.
Why does every sleeper in a train have to have an ADA compartment ? The regular sleepers should cover that need ?

David Benton wrote:It wold probably be cheaper for Amtrak to designate one double as ada accessible,( I assume it would pretty much have enough space) , sell it as a a single if a ADA booking is made, then can be sold as a double if not.

You won't be able to maneuver a wheelchair inside any slumbercoach design room. I've ridden in a double and it's about as wide as a roomette. It would not be compliant.

You're assuming a traditional sized Slumbercoaches compartment, not one enlarged to meet the wheelchair requirements. Not every compartment in that car needs to be that large, just that one.

I'm thinking the efficiency of the slumber coach is helped by the fact that there is one straight aisle down the middle of the car with rooms on both sides (like an all roomette car). Whenever you bump out a wall for a larger off-set room you lose a lot of the floor plan to aisle reconfiguration. A room that would allow wheelchair access, maneuverability and accessible restroom needs to be very large. I think the answer might be to just offer an ADA room in a sleeper at the discount slumbercoach fare (without food) if requested. Right now I believe you can get the ADA bedroom for the price of a roomette in sleepers (at least you could get the larger ADA bedroom for the rewards points of a roomette).

Get a waiver for the slumbercoach and offer people a better solution for the same costs.