Overnight Coach Configuration Ideas

Split from the V-II thread.

electricron wrote:

David Benton wrote:I think I've already mentioned that Queensland Railways have lie flat seats/pods. So zero Railways having it is not correct.

Does Queensland Railways offer any kind of sleeping compartments? Not on the trains with the luxury first class lay flat seats. Queensland cut the number of first class lay flat seat cars, from three per train to two per train because less than anticipated number of passengers were riding them. All the cuts reduced the train from 14 cars to 9 cars in length. Maybe they should have bought full sleepers instead?
Source> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Queensland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's a link to the layout of both the Rail Bed car and the Tourist class car.http://seniortravellertours.com.au/wp-c ... 00x128.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Tourist class car has 51 seats plus one spot for a wheelchair. Max capacity 51
Rail Bed car has 19 rail bed seats. Max. capacity 19
You'll pay an extra $150 (Australian) for the privilege to use a Rail Bed seat. If there are two in your party, and extra $300. Might as well had booked a room or roomette and have some privacy, if there was one available.

Here's a link to a Viewliner sleeper car layout
http://www.craigmashburn.com/images/amt ... leeper.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A Viewliner has 15 sleeping compartments, each with two beds and two chairs. Max. capacity 30

The cuts were made before they even entered service , mainly due to budget blowout. Nothing to do with demand.
I rode the first tilt train , maybe 10 -15 years ago . It was around $150 extra for a business class seat. 2 + 1 reclining.
The old Sunlander had sleeping compartments, but you wouldnt call them luxurious.

Relevant question: how has the business class on the Cardinal been faring? So far, it's the only LD with that seating class (excepting the daytime LDs, like the Palmetto) and would be expected to have through passengers that need sleep like most other humans

electricron wrote: So you want Amtrak to provide an upscale lay flat seat for business class passengers so they can sleep "overnight" on just ONE specific train service, trains 66 & 67 on the NEC? None of the other "overnight" trains on the east coast and midwest have business class seats, they have first class sleeping compartments.

Actually I was thinking specifically of the Crescent which has (according to another thread on this board) recently added a business class coach to its consist. As a Charlotte resident who must board the Crescent in the middle of the night a roomette feels like overkill (I am only getting half a night's sleep) and riding coach feels miserable. The availability of a lie flat seat would allow me to make many more trips on the Crescent -- particularly since I am usually travelling alone on LD routes (reason #2 why roomettes are not a great fit for me). Charlotte is certainly not the only 'middle of the night' market where this scenario plays out.

Bob Roberts wrote: Actually I was thinking specifically of the Crescent which has (according to another thread on this board) recently added a business class coach to its consist. As a Charlotte resident who must board the Crescent in the middle of the night a roomette feels like overkill (I am only getting half a night's sleep) and riding coach feels miserable. The availability of a lie flat seat would allow me to make many more trips on the Crescent -- particularly since I am usually travelling alone on LD routes (reason #2 why roomettes are not a great fit for me). Charlotte is certainly not the only 'middle of the night' market where this scenario plays out.

Let's review the numbers again: I don't think you saw it the first time:

Spirit of Queensland standard coach has 51 seats - max. capacity 51
Spirit of Queensland Rail Bed car has 19 rail bed seats - max. capacity 19. The typical rail bed fare is 50% more than standard coach fare.
Compared to a standard coach, the rail bed car loses money. How did I arrive at that conclusion?
With a 50% fare increase for the rail bed car, 19 x 1.5 = 28.5 which is far less than 51.

Viewliner I Sleeping car has 15 compartments, with 2 beds each - max. capacity 30.
3 rooms and 12 roomettes. For sleepers, Amtrak charges fares like in coach, but adds additional fares, usually around 250% for a roomette, and 450% for a room. To simplify, lets just add another 100% to account for the initial fare, roomette 350% and room 550% of a coach fare
3 x 5.50 + 12 c 3.50 = 16.50 + 42 = 58.5, which is very close to 59. And that's with just one passenger per compartment. With two passengers per compartment, 3 x 6.50 + 12 x 4.50 = 19.50 + 54 = 73.5, which is larger than 59. There's potential profits in those compartments if the free food is free, but the food costs Amtrak more than the potential profits.
Amfleet II standard coach has 59 seats - max. capacity 59.
I realize roomettes, rooms, and coach seat fares can vary, I arrived at the percentages above from a Texas Eagle trip from Dallas to Chicago two weeks from today, a trip about 24 hours, the same elapse time as the Spirit of Queensland. I used the same day for the Spirit of Queensland, a trip from Brisbane to Cairnes. So they are real life percentages - although I will not swear they are typical.

The point I wanted to make is that while the fares for the rail beds are significantly cheaper than the fares for a sleeping compartment, they come at a significant subsidy. Amtrak sleeper cars attempt to break even on fare revenues as their higher capacity coach cars. The Spirit of Queensland rail bed cars to not collect the same revenues as its coach cars. They would actually make moore money removing the 19 rail bed seats and installing 51 regular seats.

I'd be fine with some type of lie-flat seat and a door. Amtrak is missing one market segment with some of its long-distance trains, and I think that would satisfy that segment.

For my normal trip (which is between two cities served by the Crescent), I can fly first class for $250-$500 round trip and make the trip in 5 hours. On Amtrak, I can spend over 12 hours in coach for maybe as low as $250 (which I am simply not willing to do) or spend it in a sleeper for at least $750. Of course, I fly.

If Amtrak had a lower-cost yet comfortable option for overnight trips, OR if it allowed Amtrak Guest Rewards points to be used to upgrade, on a space-available basis (even at the last minute), from coach seats to sleeping car rooms, then I'd take Amtrak a lot more.

From Crowne Plaza Piitter Salzburg--

First, I'm pleased to see that the diversion of premium Coach seating has been.split from.V-II production and delivery.

Here is an article from an airline related site:

http://thepointsguy.com/2015/11/airline ... ing-seats/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for myself, where age has dictated that Business Class for overseas flights is a necedsity, I find flying facing aft is to be avoided. On the flight over here on a United 777-222, I was to have 9K; forward facing view partly obscured by the wing and "Mr. Whitney". But the seat's apparatus "went on strike" and I had to move to an aft facing center seat. The weather taking off from O'Hare was cloudy, but the approach to Munich was perfect - and I was deprived of my flightseeing (thanks Oscar). Return.Monday is to be 6A - unobstructed.

LONG STORY SHORT:

A section space is 6"6' x 3 feet or so. That will give you an upper and a lower berth.

A duplex room manages that requirement by diagonally stacking the rooms

So, you can pack some more into a standard car shell, but you're not going to get to the 44-48 seat density of a historic 85' single level coach.

As information, a PRE-WWII roomette(tm) car had 17 revenue spaces and a section for the Porter. A postwar car had 22 revenue spaces.

A 16 section, tourist or Standard, Pullman car had 32 revenue spaces + the mens bathroom sofa for the Porter.

PS: Double stacking spaces just will not work on a superliner. It's a headroom thing.

The seat beds I started this conversation with are the new "Delta One" design.

SouthernRailway wrote:I'd be fine with some type of lie-flat seat and a door. Amtrak is missing one market segment with some of its long-distance trains, and I think that would satisfy that segment.

For my normal trip (which is between two cities served by the Crescent), I can fly first class for $250-$500 round trip and make the trip in 5 hours. On Amtrak, I can spend over 12 hours in coach for maybe as low as $250 (which I am simply not willing to do) or spend it in a sleeper for at least $750. Of course, I fly.

If Amtrak had a lower-cost yet comfortable option for overnight trips, OR if it allowed Amtrak Guest Rewards points to be used to upgrade, on a space-available basis (even at the last minute), from coach seats to sleeping car rooms, then I'd take Amtrak a lot more.

Indeed and you're probably not the only one. I think the answer to this is an additional order of Slumbercoach type cars. I think it was a grave mistake that the CAF order didn't include something of this nature....not that it matters since the cars still haven't arrived.

That being said, I don't agree with converting the existing fleet to another class of specialized cars are the answer. This service should be in addition to the existing fleet and configurations.

With the height avaliable in the single level fleet, some kind of stacking would make sense. I think a modern version would be more airy, perhaps using perspex dividers rather than walls , with curtains for privacy at Nite. The idea been to gain privacy and lie flat seat , but avoiding the feeling of been in a shoebox.

What I forgot to express in my earlier rely, is that to break even they old have to charge 2.6 times more for a rail-bed seat than a traditional coach seat. I don't think many will pay that much for a lay flat seat. Math = 51 / 19 = 2.63

If the goal is trying to provide a cheaper alternative than Amtrak's roomettes, maybe they should look at solutions from other parts of the world that do work, and also generates more revenues. India Rail has three types of air conditioned sleepers, 1A, 2A, and 3A. Here's a link that includes explains the three layouts:
https://www.quora.com/Indian-Railways-W ... AC-Coaches" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To simplify; 1A has 17 bunks in compartments with doors, 2A has 45 bunks in bays with curtains, and 3A has 72 bunks in triple tiers in bays with curtains. As for price comparisons we have to know how many seats in the standard air conditioned coach, which is 73. They charge 33% more for a bed in 3A, 90% more for a bed in 2A, and 310% more for a bed in 1A.
Some math follows,
1A = 3.1 x 17 = 52.7
2A = 1.9 x 45 = 85.5
3A = 1.33 x 72 = 95.7
Remember, the standard coach has 73 seats. So they only lose money, as compared to a standard coach, on the 1A luxury sleeper. But they make revenues than a standard coach on the other two sleeper cars with more reasonable fares.

Slumber coaches in America were the closest to the IR 2A layout. Which I believe could be revenue neutral to Amtrak if they could sell them with fares at twice the standard coach seats.

And I would like repeat a point I have made many times, railroads and airplanes are two different modes of transportation, it is just as much a major mistake for railroads to copy airlines as it is for airlines to copy railroads!

I have traveled on the Indian triple bunked coaches, and its not too bad. Probably the only bad point is the person with the bottom bunk, has to wait till the other 2 go to bed, before he can lie down. Also , you have to be reasonably agile.
I think my favorite budget setup was on Thailand Rail. They had open compartments, 2 sets of 2 seats facing each other on one side of the aisle, 1 seat facing the other on the other side of the aisle. It was actually quite spacious feeling , and this was on the narrow gauge. Probably 30 -40 seats per carriage.

Honestly you could put these on the Lake Shore/Captiol Limited as well, because for those who take it out to Ohio, its a long distance as well. There would be a market for this east coast "overnight lite sleeper" besides 66/67.

They could do that to every long distance train, because every train services towns and cities in the middle of the night. But Congress is not going to allow Amtrak install luxury seats in coach cars that will not earn a profit. That's why food service losses associated with sleeper cars has so many of Congress riled up, they don't want to be seen subsidizing luxury.
Let's just assume an overnight coach fare was $100. To break even with a standard coach, Amtrak would have to charge 2.6 times that, i.e. $260. Golly, you could buy the adjacent coach seat for another $100, and save $60 with even a better couch/bed in a standard coach.