NICTD WLC which would you choose? please sign petition!

jb9152 wrote:
1)Of course they wouldn't have done that. The catenary is AC, and there is already 3rd rail on the ground. Why WOULD they put pantographs on them? My point is that the majority of the technology and design already exists in a loco like the P32 - it would not be a stretch to imagine a NICTD dual mode locomotive substantially based on a P32 design, except with a pantograph instead of 3rd rail shoes.
2)I didn't say that it would be. My point was to correct your assumption that this would be a $12 million monster like the NJT/AMT AC catenary dual modes. Those, when they're built, will be the first of their kind everywhere. A P32 with a retrofitted pantograph and related electrical gear is not nearly as big a stretch as the NJT/AMT jobs, and would not be nearly as expensive.
3)Again, the NICTD dual mode locomotive would not necessarily have to be some revolutionary new design. It could literally be a P32 dual mode locomotive with a pantograph/related equipment retrofit.
4)The dual mode married pair MU would be based on the new bi-level equipment. There's nothing experimental about one car having a pantograph, and another having a diesel prime mover.
5) I'm not really guessing - I work at NICTD.

well there are a LOT of places that they could have used the P32 in pantograph mode had it been modified for the NEC instead of just the 3rd rail shoes limited areas.

I understood you with that, I was not debating that point. Its always better to drop $4-5 million on a work around invention that will do the job just as well as the person starting from scratch making it for $12 million.

My point is if they went that way what locomotives would they use? GE has discontinued making the p32/40/42. I don't remember NICTD having any of there own diesel passenger locos on hand. and I doubt anyone right now is letting go of any old locomotive stock nationwide rather than some F40s and the a few original Amtrak P40s which need to be totally overhauled. So would this not lead to a call for NICTD to just buy new locomotives ?

Are they really thinking about doing this to the new cars because with the way the layout current looks from pictures seems pretty cramped for space. SO Where the heck would they be able to fit a prime mover in that shell and its components while still keep passenger capacity and wouldn't they still need the second pantograph for bi directional moves as the current ones on each car are one directional leaving no room up top for a prime mover or additional equipment ? Also as this technology has not been implemented in the US it leave the conclusion it would be experimental no matter what angle you look at it. the P32 where considered experimental when first released.

If you really have the inside track then don't leave us in the dark we hunger for more details and specifics...

my main question whats going on with the new route is it a green light and if so which one. Ive heard a lot of convincing testimony for the lowell line?

buddah wrote:well there are a LOT of places that they could have used the P32 in pantograph mode had it been modified for the NEC instead of just the 3rd rail shoes limited areas.

NO, there are NOT. The NEC is AC, 3rd rail is DC (as is NICTD's catenary). There is NO AC catenary dual mode locomotive right now. One of the challenges faced by the vehicle and systems engineers at Bombardier is fitting both a diesel prime mover *and* the large transformer necessary with the AC catenary operation into a normal-sized and weighted locomotive carbody.

buddah wrote:My point is if they went that way what locomotives would they use? GE has discontinued making the p32/40/42. I don't remember NICTD having any of there own diesel passenger locos on hand. and I doubt anyone right now is letting go of any old locomotive stock nationwide rather than some F40s and the a few original Amtrak P40s which need to be totally overhauled. So would this not lead to a call for NICTD to just buy new locomotives ?

NICTD, if it doesn't decide on the dual mode married pair MU concept, would obviously have to buy a "new" locomotive. That's not my point; my point is that the technology already exists and is proven. GE could, for the right amount of money, blow the dust off the old plans, make some improvements based on advances in technology since they stopped making DMs (perhaps high speed diesel engines?), and build away. But there is no $6 to $7 million development cost to solve the design and engineering issues that exist with an AC catenary dual mode of the kind that NJT and AMT are hoping to buy.

Oh, and also - NICTD does have its own diesel, a GP40. Also known as "the Grey Ghost".

buddah wrote:Are they really thinking about doing this to the new cars because with the way the layout current looks from pictures seems pretty cramped for space. SO Where the heck would they be able to fit a prime mover in that shell and its components while still keep passenger capacity and wouldn't they still need the second pantograph for bi directional moves as the current ones on each car are one directional leaving no room up top for a prime mover or additional equipment ? Also as this technology has not been implemented in the US it leave the conclusion it would be experimental no matter what angle you look at it. the P32 where considered experimental when first released.

It's conceptual, of course, but with high speed diesels you can significantly shrink the size of the compartment for the engine. But some concessions would have to be made in space; probably the best way to do that would be to eliminate the restroom on the diesel car (there are restrooms in every one of the new bi-level MUs). A second pantograph would not necessarily be needed - they're not directional, they work in either direction. NICTD prefers by convention and due to the state of the wire to run the cars with the knuckle of the pantograph "V" facing forward. There is nothing that prevents them from running the other way; it's done often if there is a problem with the pantographs running in the other direction.

buddah wrote:If you really have the inside track then don't leave us in the dark we hunger for more details and specifics...

my main question whats going on with the new route is it a green light and if so which one. Ive heard a lot of convincing testimony for the lowell line?

Well, it's still conceptual right now, very conceptual. When the more specific design parameters are locked in, I'll have more to discuss. But, happy to do it!

I'll back JB up here. It's not complex to mount a pantograph on a previously dual-mode design equipped for DC third rail. It probably includes removing the third rail shoe from the design, routing the power buss up to the roof, bracing the roof to hold the weight of the pan(s) and mounting a fairly standard pan. The equipment is otherwise the same for changeover, save for the pan up/down buttons in the cab. The difference between 600vDC and 1500vDC is not too big for design purpose, other than the fact you need less copper. Michigan City Shops has previously rewired former NYC third rail locomotives (700-series) to run on the South Shore catenary system, it shouldn't be too tough for a genuine locomotive manufacturer to figure things out.

Dual mode is nothing new. Having one car electric and another prime mover sounds very practical and no need to buy a locomotive. This would make them compatible with the new bi-levels.
The would need power connections between married cars. Youmight not need a pantagraph on the prime-mover car but then for emergencies, you will.

There is one issue about being all electric and it goes back to the IC being electrified from steam, is all the steam exhaust. Today that would be diesel exhaust, and when you hit the chicago terminal that will exhaust in passenger areas if not shut down. How much of an issue that is I don't know.

Obviously not installing overhead may be a cost saving, just fixing the right of way and signalling,
but how much of an added cost doing overhead is something to check on vs the new equipment.
You could always install a minimal overhead and upgrade it later.
But obviously the South Shore has equipment now to run the new line if its all electric.
(not depleting its current car needs). The new cars now would release some older equipment now for use elsewhere.. just a matter how you manage equipment use, and if scheduled right, one normal SS train could mate with a Lowel train and run as one train into chicago IE like the MC meetups adding cars, if the train isnt too long for requirements.
How practical that is is an open question.

dinwitty wrote:
1)Obviously not installing overhead may be a cost saving, just fixing the right of way and signalling,
2)but how much of an added cost doing overhead is something to check on vs the new equipment.
you could always install a minimal overhead and upgrade it later.
3) obviously the South Shore has equipment now to run the new line if its all electric.
(not depleting its current car needs). The new cars now would release some older equipment now for use elsewhere.. just a matter how you manage equipment use, and if scheduled right, one normal SS train could mate with a Lowel train and run as one train into chicago IE like the MC meetups adding cars, if the train isnt too long for requirements.
4) How practical that is is an open question.

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Yes I see that as well for the lower cost factor at the moment.

That is definitely a good point as per mile if they installed minimal overhead would it not work out to be the same as trying to buy/modify/build/retrofit new equipment.

POINT ! you will already know in stone what more equipment will cost you

I believe it is very practical... ALSO does any one know if these lines are going to be double tracked or single tracked? Im guessing doubled after kensington to the point of separation from lowel to Valpo. then each would follow its own single tracked ROW. any one have any ideas?

People please try to keep on or close to topic ( I know I helped it drift , MY BAD, but it was slightly related) but what line would you chose if the lowel line was not the winner at the moment. and why?

dinwitty wrote:Dual mode is nothing new. Having one car electric and another prime mover sounds very practical and no need to buy a locomotive. This would make them compatible with the new bi-levels.
The would need power connections between married cars. Youmight not need a pantagraph on the prime-mover car but then for emergencies, you will.

There is one issue about being all electric and it goes back to the IC being electrified from steam, is all the steam exhaust. Today that would be diesel exhaust, and when you hit the chicago terminal that will exhaust in passenger areas if not shut down. How much of an issue that is I don't know.

Probably a non-issue. The diesel would simply be shut down before reaching Randolph Street, as the train would be under wire from Hammond west/north.

dinwitty wrote:Obviously not installing overhead may be a cost saving, just fixing the right of way and signalling,
but how much of an added cost doing overhead is something to check on vs the new equipment.
You could always install a minimal overhead and upgrade it later.
But obviously the South Shore has equipment now to run the new line if its all electric.
(not depleting its current car needs). The new cars now would release some older equipment now for use elsewhere.. just a matter how you manage equipment use, and if scheduled right, one normal SS train could mate with a Lowel train and run as one train into chicago IE like the MC meetups adding cars, if the train isnt too long for requirements.
How practical that is is an open question.

Even with the new cars, there are not enough cars on the property to operate the South Shore and the Lowell Lines. NICTD would need at least another 40 cars or so to run them both at an appropriate level of service and still have some kind of shop margin to be able to service the bad orders without having to scramble around.

if they go with the locomotives, I wonder what kind of cars they might use.. bombardiers?

Interesting thing about having the dual mode locomotives, it would mean the return of an electricly operated locomotive on the line. Maybe during their off times they could pull freight...

I would think to get the line going ASAP is single track with passing sidings.

If were talking combining trains the locos would have to MU with the regular cars.

How many trains per day are we thinking on the extensions? Amtrak and the other commuter runs I believe were only like 1 or 2 each direction. I would expect the SS to expand that dramatically.

My best guess is until the route is well know and used, do a blitz schedule ( or whatever its called now). In the AM rush run 6 trains northbound and 2 southbound. during the midday 2-3 in each direction and in the PM rush hour 6 southbound and 2 northbound. "just my figuring".

buddah wrote:My best guess is until the route is well know and used, do a blitz schedule ( or whatever its called now). In the AM rush run 6 trains northbound and 2 southbound. during the midday 2-3 in each direction and in the PM rush hour 6 southbound and 2 northbound. "just my figuring".

Lets call it 4 car trains as an estimate.

The rush in takes 24 cars, but 2 make a return, making it 16. But if you do a car move like add another south bound, it makes it 12 cars.

It might be a good idea to do a local survey asking the locals would you ride the new South Shore service. You could get a rider estimate...but you could expect trains to go to the max of 8 cars per train.

It may look like new equipment no matter what.

well Dinwitty 4 seems to be adequate as well however I was basing my hypothesis on both lines being open as in 3 from lowell and 3 from valpo in the AM and return in the evening but I guess they could do it with 2 trains each for a start up. 1 in each direction south in the morning and the same for the evening return. and midday is up for debate. but I think were right around the same ballpark. anyone who says more than that on opening day, id have to respectfully disagree with them.
EDIT: Opening day...
lowel to chicago = 6 am, 7am, 8am .departure times
valpo to chicago = 6:30, 7:30, 8:30 am departure times

and with those you can figure the return and midday moves
but generally you get the point.. 4 cars on each train = 24 cars for the morning rush in
and I agree no matter what new equipment is needed.

superbad wrote:if they go with the locomotives, I wonder what kind of cars they might use.. bombardiers?

NICTD has had a long history with Sumitomo / Nippon Sharyo, so I would expect it would be their bid to lose, although with the competitive bidding process any competent bidder would have a shot.

dinwitty wrote:Interesting thing about having the dual mode locomotives, it would mean the return of an electricly operated locomotive on the line. Maybe during their off times they could pull freight...

I would think to get the line going ASAP is single track with passing sidings.

If were talking combining trains the locos would have to MU with the regular cars.

How many trains per day are we thinking on the extensions? Amtrak and the other commuter runs I believe were only like 1 or 2 each direction. I would expect the SS to expand that dramatically.

The last numbers I heard were 5 trains in the AM peak, 1 midday round trip, and 5 trains in the PM peak.

jb9152 wrote:

superbad wrote:if they go with the locomotives, I wonder what kind of cars they might use.. bombardiers?

NICTD has had a long history with Sumitomo / Nippon Sharyo, so I would expect it would be their bid to lose, although with the competitive bidding process any competent bidder would have a shot.

Hey JB I don't know about that, I wouldn't speak so soon with this new " Buy American" clause the government is signing in to law. For all public works projects and as NICTD is state operated they may get the shaft. Now all orders placed before the clause went into effect are safe and exempt form it. but it will be interesting to see how orders after this will work. Does Nippon even have a US building facility? Parts of the bill already passed and regulate that Steel be made by US companies in the US, also products resulting for steel be manufactured here as well. Canada is Having a FIT right now! The US has killed one of there major exports. It will be interesting to see how this works out.

EDIT: form Sumitomo/Nippon web site on there current car projects for the US....
"Car body shells will be manufactured in Nippon Sharayo's Toyokawa plant in Japan and the final assembley will be done at Super Steel's plant in Milwaukee using various components procured in the U.S."

jb9152 wrote:

dinwitty wrote:Interesting thing about having the dual mode locomotives, it would mean the return of an electricly operated locomotive on the line. Maybe during their off times they could pull freight...

I would think to get the line going ASAP is single track with passing sidings.

If were talking combining trains the locos would have to MU with the regular cars.

How many trains per day are we thinking on the extensions? Amtrak and the other commuter runs I believe were only like 1 or 2 each direction. I would expect the SS to expand that dramatically.

The last numbers I heard were 5 trains in the AM peak, 1 midday round trip, and 5 trains in the PM peak.

I know this might be looking WAY ahead, but are there any sort of "reverse moves" planned during rush hours, where one set would short-turn (as a revenue express run or equipment move) to an outlying point or to Randolph St (in the PM rush) to make another trip? If so, then the schedule could conceivably be covered by 4 sets assigned to both Lowell & Valpo...