NICTD WLC which would you choose? please sign petition!

orulz wrote:Thanks. Actually I think I phrased my question wrong. I basically meant to say that the new alignment makes a lot of sense to me, and ask why they even considered the MC routing in the first place. But I think I figured it out: Hohman junction.

With this new routing, any idea how would they handle crossing the MC at Hohman Junction? Would it just be a diamond like the Monon used to be? Or will they do something more clever (and much more expensive) like lower the MC? Have they even figured this out yet?

I don't think that's been figured out yet, but a subway underneath the current diamonds, while expensive, wouldn't be a bad idea. Theoretically, the new ROW could descend from the flyover at State line into a subway running underneath the current Hohman crossing, then out again to link up to the Monon. But the cheapest way to go would probably mean re-installing the diamonds, although that would likely require some sort of reconfiguration of the Hohman Ave. viaduct...

I believe if this gets to go ahead it will be by means of a new diamond or a fly over, I dough there going with a subway especially after how NW Indiana floods. there are pictures of it all over the net (flickr) if anyone want to see how bad it gets. so I hope the committee is only looking at those 2 options.. and as for diesel I'm pretty sure there will be new centenary installed along the ROW. I can't see them going backward in technology. Using the single level EMU Nippon cars for the new extended route and the new double deckers for the main line.

buddah wrote:and as for diesel I'm pretty sure there will be new centenary installed along the ROW. I can't see them going backward in technology. Using the single level EMU Nippon cars for the new extended route and the new double deckers for the main line.

Nope. Plan is for dual-mode equipment, either a locomotive hauling coaches or a hybrid semi-permanently coupled MU.

so the plan on equipment will be somewhat similar if not the same as the new atlantic city casino train with a deisel on one end and an electric loco on the other?

so its back to diesel hauled cars?

I thought it would have been all electric

superbad wrote:so the plan on equipment will be somewhat similar if not the same as the new atlantic city casino train with a deisel on one end and an electric loco on the other?

No. A dual-mode locomotive hauling coaches -OR- a bi-level MU set with a pantograph on one car and a diesel prime mover on the other.

dinwitty wrote:so its back to diesel hauled cars?

I thought it would have been all electric

It has never been all electric.

WOW, thats quite a interesting revelation, I never hear of that concept anywhere for the NICTD yet. So A dual mode loco you say? diesel and centenary? Seeing as how there are no such locomotive in operation in North America I wonder who would build them. Im guessing bombardier since they are in the works for building dual mode locomotives for NJT in jersey and AMT in canada. However would this not blow them way OVER budget as the ones Bombardiers set to currently build are costing NJT/AMT $325 million for 26 locomotive which brakes down to $12.5 million a piece, and thats with the power of buying in bulk. The reason NJT and AMT hooked up for this deal.
heres a brief summary....

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-183981356.html

Im with dinwitty I was hoping for all electric, does anyone even make a dual mode MU coach for the North American market? I believe that's possibly a last resort.

buddah wrote:WOW, thats quite a interesting revelation, I never hear of that concept anywhere for the NICTD yet. So A dual mode loco you say? diesel and centenary? Seeing as how there are no such locomotive in operation in North America I wonder who would build them. Im guessing bombardier since they are in the works for building dual mode locomotives for NJT in jersey and AMT in canada. However would this not blow them way OVER budget as the ones Bombardiers set to currently build are costing NJT/AMT $325 million for 26 locomotive which brakes down to 12.5 million a piece, and thats with the power of buying in bulk. The reason NJT and AMT hooked up for this deal.
heres a brief summary....

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-183981356.html

Im with dinwitty I was hoping for all electric, does anyone even make a dual mode MU coach for the North American market? I believe that's possibly a last resort.

NICTD's catenary is DC, not AC. So, while the configuration might be a little different, in essence these locos already exist in 3rd-rail powered electric railroads like Metro North. The 3rd rail shoe would be replaced by a pantograph, but the basic equipment would be the same. What NJT/AMT are buying is a totally new type of vehicle - AC catenary and diesel.

The concept of a dual mode MU would not necessarily be a "last resort". As I pointed out, this would be a married pair, not a single car. One car would have a pantograph and related equipment, and the other would have a diesel prime mover.

does anybody have any pics of what these dual mode locos being built by bombardier will look like?

jb9152 wrote: NICTD's catenary is DC, not AC. So, while the configuration might be a little different, in essence these locos already exist in 3rd-rail powered electric railroads like Metro North. The 3rd rail shoe would be replaced by a pantograph, but the basic equipment would be the same. What NJT/AMT are buying is a totally new type of vehicle - AC catenary and diesel.

The concept of a dual mode MU would not necessarily be a "last resort". As I pointed out, this would be a married pair, not a single car. One car would have a pantograph and related equipment, and the other would have a diesel prime mover.

True JB the NEC is AC not DC , and there are locos that already exist in 3rd rail versions as in the GE P32, BUT there it is 3rd rail not pantograph! I doubt Amtrak or metro north would have equipped there p32 with pantographs because the cost for design and implementation overly out weight adding simple 3rd rail shoes and few simple electrical components. The bottom line still remains. There would still need to be a newly designed locomotive as there are none in this configurations (DC pan/ diesel) currently in North America. Not to mention most overseas systems are AC as well there is one DC/ diesel MU in France I know of(AGC) but it will not meet NICTD standards or FRA regulations. Its not going to be as simple as just throwing some pantographs on a current diesel locomotive. We could only wish, If it was I don't think NJT and AMT would be working with bombardier for new locomotives. lets say for the benefit of NICTD they go with bombardiers design and exchange the electrical components from an AC system to a DC system. how much would that cost them to modify the design for there use. As they will be the ONLY ones in North America using them. I believe thats why the new Atlantic city train uses one diesel locomotive on one end and and electric on the other, for the cost to build one locomotive to do both was too time consuming and just to expensive for them.

I hear you on a dual mode married pair MU one electric one diesel, makes seance and it would be very interesting to see as NICTD would be the only operators. Again there are NONE in existence as far as I know in North America that are dual mode specifically for DC pantograph/ diesel. So again were back to new "experimental" rolling stock. If you know of one in North America past or present please submit it, id like to see it. as we know the new double deckers are based on metra electrics design, that was done to save them on having to start fresh from the drawing board.

we can all keep guessing here but only time will tell, only if the route is approved, will we be filled in on more specifics on what the rolling stock status will be. so lets focus on that first.

EDIT: to superbad I have yet to see any preliminary designs for that bombardier dual locomotive, and no info' is currently available on there website.
the only DC pantograph/ diesel hybrid MU in the world currently is Bombardiers AGC hybrid (that's on there website)

this is about like the skokie swift sort of way.

So its not getting electrified? so when the train hits the South Shore they transfer to electric? Just what is the operational plan here?

dinwitty wrote:this is about like the skokie swift sort of way.

So its not getting electrified? so when the train hits the South Shore they transfer to electric? Just what is the operational plan here?

At least with the skokie swift I believe they were operating on the same current and voltage from 3rd rail to pantagraph and even for them it was/is more efficient to just go all third rail as now the entire line is 3rd rail currently from howard to dempster.

With the south shore only if the line passes full exception do I think we will ever know.

buddah wrote:True JB the NEC is AC not DC , and there are locos that already exist in 3rd rail versions as in the GE P32, BUT there it is 3rd rail not pantograph! I doubt Amtrak or metro north would have equipped there p32 with pantographs because the cost for design and implementation overly out weight adding simple 3rd rail shoes and few simple electrical components.

Of course they wouldn't have done that. The catenary is AC, and there is already 3rd rail on the ground. Why WOULD they put pantographs on them? My point is that the majority of the technology and design already exists in a loco like the P32 - it would not be a stretch to imagine a NICTD dual mode locomotive substantially based on a P32 design, except with a pantograph instead of 3rd rail shoes.

buddah wrote:The bottom line still remains. There would still need to be a newly designed locomotive as there are none in this configurations (DC pan/ diesel) currently in North America. Not to mention most overseas systems are AC as well there is one DC/ diesel MU in France I know of(AGC) but it will not meet NICTD standards or FRA regulations. Its not going to be as simple as just throwing some pantographs on a current diesel locomotive.

I didn't say that it would be. My point was to correct your assumption that this would be a $12 million monster like the NJT/AMT AC catenary dual modes. Those, when they're built, will be the first of their kind everywhere. A P32 with a retrofitted pantograph and related electrical gear is not nearly as big a stretch as the NJT/AMT jobs, and would not be nearly as expensive.

buddah wrote:We could only wish, If it was I don't think NJT and AMT would be working with bombardier for new locomotives. lets say for the benefit of NICTD they go with bombardiers design and exchange the electrical components from an AC system to a DC system. how much would that cost them to modify the design for there use. As they will be the ONLY ones in North America using them. I believe thats why the new Atlantic city train uses one diesel locomotive on one end and and electric on the other, for the cost to build one locomotive to do both was too time consuming and just to expensive for them.

No, the ACES train is using the two locos because the NJT/AMT dual mode locos don't exist yet.

Again, the NICTD dual mode locomotive would not necessarily have to be some revolutionary new design. It could literally be a P32 dual mode locomotive with a pantograph/related equipment retrofit.

buddah wrote:I hear you on a dual mode married pair MU one electric one diesel, makes seance and it would be very interesting to see as NICTD would be the only operators. Again there are NONE in existence as far as I know in North America that are dual mode specifically for DC pantograph/ diesel. So again were back to new "experimental" rolling stock. If you know of one in North America past or present please submit it, id like to see it. as we know the new double deckers are based on metra electrics design, that was done to save them on having to start fresh from the drawing board.

The dual mode married pair MU would be based on the new bi-level equipment. There's nothing experimental about one car having a pantograph, and another having a diesel prime mover.

buddah wrote:we can all keep guessing here but only time will tell, only if the route is approved, will we be filled in on more specifics on what the rolling stock status will be. so lets focus on that first.

I'm not really guessing - I work at NICTD.

dinwitty wrote:this is about like the skokie swift sort of way.

So its not getting electrified? so when the train hits the South Shore they transfer to electric? Just what is the operational plan here?

Correct. The train would operate in diesel mode until it reached the South Shore Line. In the westbound direction at the first station stop, the pantograph would be raised and the diesel put in idle, and off it goes. Same in reverse coming out of the city.