New Atlanta Station

jayo wrote:To be honest, the current Amtrak station is too far away from anything! So they would greatly benefit from the proposed station. But yeah, I think there will need to be a bit of rerouting done. I think there's also talk of a stop by Hartsfield...

Unfortunately, Amtrak may not be able to effectively use a downtown Atlanta station. To keep the Crescent on the current route and have it serve the MMPT would require a backing move of some type. Either the train goes forward in, then reverses back to Howell junction, swings around Howell and backs down into the MMPT, or the train goes forward in, then pulls east, backs down the southeastern leg of the central WYE and then heads northbound, or the train goes in forward, and the platforms are arranged such that it can back directly onto the main track and proceed forward from there. What should have happened, is the state not allow the beltline to be used for the urban greenspace plan with light rail and bike/walking trails and bring the Crescent through a restored Armour WYE track onto the beltline, then into the MMPT. No backing move required. It'd lengthen the Crescent schedule slightly, but not near as much as a backing maneuver would require.

Now, that's all assuming Amtrak wants to keep the Crescent going through Birmingham, Meridian, Hattiesburg, etc. If Amtrak were amenable however to rerouting the Crescent along the route of the old Southern Crescent (Atlanta-Montgomery-Mobile), then not only could the MMPT possibly work without too much of a backing move, but a stop at Hartsfield could also be in the cards.

MattW wrote:What should have happened, is the state not allow the beltline to be used for the urban greenspace plan with light rail and bike/walking trails and bring the Crescent through a restored Armour WYE track onto the beltline, then into the MMPT. No backing move required. It'd lengthen the Crescent schedule slightly, but not near as much as a backing maneuver would require.

You really think sacrificing one of the most innovative transit and urban development projects in the country is worth bringing one intercity train downtown? I'm sorry but the benefits of the beltline far and away outstrip the inconveniences associated with having the current station at Brockwood or the obstacles of having the station downtown and having to do a backup maneuver.

Now maybe I'm missing something but why can't the train just wye in the gulch?

trainmaster611 wrote:

MattW wrote:What should have happened, is the state not allow the beltline to be used for the urban greenspace plan with light rail and bike/walking trails and bring the Crescent through a restored Armour WYE track onto the beltline, then into the MMPT. No backing move required. It'd lengthen the Crescent schedule slightly, but not near as much as a backing maneuver would require.

You really think sacrificing one of the most innovative transit and urban development projects in the country is worth bringing one intercity train downtown? I'm sorry but the benefits of the beltline far and away outstrip the inconveniences associated with having the current station at Brockwood or the obstacles of having the station downtown and having to do a backup maneuver.

There are 31 light rail systems in the country, and every city with more than fifty people has "plans" for one, the beltline is hardly innovative. The beltline is a speculative project with the transit component relying on private investors building mixed-use developments along the beltline at some undefined point in the future. The only reason I currently "support" it is because I know that there's no chance of the beltline being taken back for a more suitable purpose so I might as well take the lesser of two evils (i.e. it's not more roads). But it's not just one intercity train. People would eventually like to see corridor and high speed trains to Charlotte, tying in with SEHSR on up to D.C. Unless you take a roundabout route via Athens missing Clemson, Greenville, Spartanburg, and Gastonia, or go Atlanta-Augusta-Columbia-Charlotte (I live along this line, that WON'T happen), trains to the northeast will have the same backing move problems as the Crescent to Birmingham, if they are to run through to the airport (under all the plans I've seen for the MMPT track orientation). Intermediate passengers, particularly passengers at cities without a major airport and those with more limited budgets would be the prime target ridership for an Atlanta (airport) to Charlotte (airport) train, linking two major airports to the cities in between (and possibly reducing the number of flights between them).

Now maybe I'm missing something but why can't the train just wye in the gulch?

Because, backing moves take a lot of time. The Crescent already takes nearly twice as long as driving Atlanta to Birmingham (4 hours compared to 2.5) and WYEing around the gulch would add at least 30 minutes, maybe more, and that's without taking into account freight conflicts and the slightly longer route directly into downtown.

MattW wrote: There are 31 light rail systems in the country, and every city with more than fifty people has "plans" for one, the beltline is hardly innovative. The beltline is a speculative project with the transit component relying on private investors building mixed-use developments along the beltline at some undefined point in the future. The only reason I currently "support" it is because I know that there's no chance of the beltline being taken back for a more suitable purpose so I might as well take the lesser of two evils (i.e. it's not more roads). But it's not just one intercity train. People would eventually like to see corridor and high speed trains to Charlotte, tying in with SEHSR on up to D.C. Unless you take a roundabout route via Athens missing Clemson, Greenville, Spartanburg, and Gastonia, or go Atlanta-Augusta-Columbia-Charlotte (I live along this line, that WON'T happen), trains to the northeast will have the same backing move problems as the Crescent to Birmingham, if they are to run through to the airport (under all the plans I've seen for the MMPT track orientation). Intermediate passengers, particularly passengers at cities without a major airport and those with more limited budgets would be the prime target ridership for an Atlanta (airport) to Charlotte (airport) train, linking two major airports to the cities in between (and possibly reducing the number of flights between them).

Now maybe I'm missing something but why can't the train just wye in the gulch?

Because, backing moves take a lot of time. The Crescent already takes nearly twice as long as driving Atlanta to Birmingham (4 hours compared to 2.5) and WYEing around the gulch would add at least 30 minutes, maybe more, and that's without taking into account freight conflicts and the slightly longer route directly into downtown.

Have you been along the segment of the beltline in question? Many parts of it have already been developed (Inman Park Village, Old Fourth Ward Park) and other parts are in active stages of development (Ponce City Market). Even underdeveloped parts of the corridor are up and coming and in the midst of a transition to becoming more prosperous communities. And even if it was purely speculative, so what? We already know developers will come. Look at every other light rail project that's been developed. Charlotte built its line along an industrial corridor and it's already springing up with apartments and shopping centers. Nevermind the parks and trails amenities and convenient proximity to attractive neighborhoods in eastern Atlanta. That place has so much potential waiting to be tapped and the beltline sits right in the center of it all!

And this isn't your typical light rail line either. It connects neighborhoods and businesses as opposed to just acting as a commuter line for people going from the suburbs to downtown or a downtown circulator. The beltline is prime real estate. It would be ludicrous to sacrifice all of that to turn intercity trains around. And presumably, if they ever started corridor service, it would make a whole lot more sense to just attach a cab car to the other end to allow the train to run in reverse.

I don't think the location is necessarily bad. It is at the top of midtown and bottom of Buckhead. It's just constrained in space.

The results of the recent T-SPLOST may put the future intermodal terminal in the gulch in trouble. It may be this old terminal or move to Lenox.

I'd add that two stations might be beneficial in Atlanta.

Jeff Smith wrote:I don't think the location is necessarily bad. It is at the top of midtown and bottom of Buckhead. It's just constrained in space.

The results of the recent T-SPLOST may put the future intermodal terminal in the gulch in trouble. It may be this old terminal or move to Lenox.

Agreed. What it needs is more parking (though parking across the street in the Mason's parking lot helps).

And a MUCH bigger waiting area. Personally I'd build "SB" (sort of westward) over the existing tracks and have at least 2 sets of stairs up/down. This would greatly help loading/unloading times.

Then a place to park a sleeper car.

And add a day train that leaves ATL in the morning and arrives WAS in the evening and vice-versa and you'd greatly increase the value of Atlanta.

Jeff Smith wrote:I don't think the location is necessarily bad. It is at the top of midtown and bottom of Buckhead. It's just constrained in space.

The results of the recent T-SPLOST may put the future intermodal terminal in the gulch in trouble. It may be this old terminal or move to Lenox.

MMPT was unrelated to TSPOST so it wasn't affected by the vote. Is Lenox even still in the cards? I thought the short term debate was whether to stay put or move to Atlantic Station.

Greg Moore wrote:Agreed. What it needs is more parking (though parking across the street in the Mason's parking lot helps).

Maybe, but so long as we are thinking big (MMPT) I think more emphasis should be placed on interconnectivity with MARTA and the urban environment more than on parking. If you ride the MARTA trains regularly you will notice the very large number of people that take it to the airport. MARTA has plenty of park-and-rides or kiss-and-rides at the stations that people use before going to the airport. The same could be done for the MMPT and lessen the need to construct a large surface lot or parking structure. Plus it never hurts to encourage car-free use once you get to Atlanta by Amtrak.

And a MUCH bigger waiting area. Personally I'd build "SB" (sort of westward) over the existing tracks and have at least 2 sets of stairs up/down. This would greatly help loading/unloading times.

Then a place to park a sleeper car.

And add a day train that leaves ATL in the morning and arrives WAS in the evening and vice-versa and you'd greatly increase the value of Atlanta.

Totally agree with the morning NB, evening SB arrival thing. The schedule always hamstrings me when I'm trying to go north. I think more important than another long distance train though is adding corridor service to nearby cities (Birmingham, Montgomery, Savannah, Jacksonville, Augusta, Athens, Charlotte).

I'm surprised no one mentioned this.

We Can’t Wait: Obama Administration Announces Atlanta Regional Multimodal Passenger Terminal Project to Be Expedited
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-off ... multimodal
http://www.11alive.com/news/article/249 ... track-help

Well the new info about the Obama administration expediting the MMPT changes what I was going to say, I hadn't heard of that, I guess since it was just before the T-SPLOST vote, there wasn't much attention paid to it.
But what I was originally going to say is that due to the failure of the T-SPLOST, the MMPT may indeed take a back burner since the governor has already said that he wouldn't support ANY more transit funding.

Maybe, but so long as we are thinking big (MMPT) I think more emphasis should be placed on interconnectivity with MARTA and the urban environment more than on parking. If you ride the MARTA trains regularly you will notice the very large number of people that take it to the airport. MARTA has plenty of park-and-rides or kiss-and-rides at the stations that people use before going to the airport. The same could be done for the MMPT and lessen the need to construct a large surface lot or parking structure. Plus it never hurts to encourage car-free use once you get to Atlanta by Amtrak.

Even a single long-term parking space is preferable to what we have now. While I agree that the focus should be on accessing the station and Amtrak via public transit, most people in Metro Atlanta won't, because they can't. MARTA rail doesn't extend very far, and the bus service to the suburbs only really works inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening, and still isn't that fast or reliable because the buses are caught in traffic. People can drive to a MARTA station like Dunwoody or Doraville and use MARTA's long term parking, and I have, but not everyone will, or even know about it. Unfortunately, until either all day Xpress bus service runs to the suburbs, or MARTA rail or commuter rail can be extended to Atlanta's suburbs, the MMPT will have to be a bus station with more expansive long-term parking for Amtrak.

trainmaster611 wrote:

Jeff Smith wrote:I don't think the location is necessarily bad. It is at the top of midtown and bottom of Buckhead. It's just constrained in space.

The results of the recent T-SPLOST may put the future intermodal terminal in the gulch in trouble. It may be this old terminal or move to Lenox.

MMPT was unrelated to TSPOST so it wasn't affected by the vote. Is Lenox even still in the cards? I thought the short term debate was whether to stay put or move to Atlantic Station.

Greg Moore wrote:Agreed. What it needs is more parking (though parking across the street in the Mason's parking lot helps).

Maybe, but so long as we are thinking big (MMPT) I think more emphasis should be placed on interconnectivity with MARTA and the urban environment more than on parking. If you ride the MARTA trains regularly you will notice the very large number of people that take it to the airport. MARTA has plenty of park-and-rides or kiss-and-rides at the stations that people use before going to the airport. The same could be done for the MMPT and lessen the need to construct a large surface lot or parking structure. Plus it never hurts to encourage car-free use once you get to Atlanta by Amtrak.

I would have to agree a connection to MARTA would help. Though, I discovered this past summer that it's really not to hard to get from the station to the closest MARTA station. But would be nicer if it were a bit more obvious. (backstory, I have been going to Atlanta 1-2 times a year pretty much for about 10 years now. I pick up my rental car at the Buckhead Marriott. Finally this past year on two different trips took the time to figure out the bus/MARTA system. Not to bad, but not overly obvious. And not something I'd suggest to the casual traveler.)

MattW wrote: Even a single long-term parking space is preferable to what we have now. While I agree that the focus should be on accessing the station and Amtrak via public transit, most people in Metro Atlanta won't, because they can't. MARTA rail doesn't extend very far, and the bus service to the suburbs only really works inbound in the morning and outbound in the evening, and still isn't that fast or reliable because the buses are caught in traffic. People can drive to a MARTA station like Dunwoody or Doraville and use MARTA's long term parking, and I have, but not everyone will, or even know about it. Unfortunately, until either all day Xpress bus service runs to the suburbs, or MARTA rail or commuter rail can be extended to Atlanta's suburbs, the MMPT will have to be a bus station with more expansive long-term parking for Amtrak.

That's the thing though, if you limit parking immediately around the station but provide a good MARTA connection, they'll take MARTA instead. The hassle of parking at the airport is a big factor in why a lot of people in the metro area choose to take MARTA there. Even someone way outside the perimeter that lives in a place like Alpharetta or Lawrenceville will drive to North Springs or Doraville. It works well for both the airport and the greyhound station. Then the area you would've been used for parking can be used for something more productive that will make the area more attractive such as apartments or a shopping center.

And you're right about Deal. Even if MMPT wasn't directly connected to TSPLOST, it's still a setback for transit in the region and will affect policy in that arena.

Greg Moore wrote:I would have to agree a connection to MARTA would help. Though, I discovered this past summer that it's really not to hard to get from the station to the closest MARTA station. But would be nicer if it were a bit more obvious. (backstory, I have been going to Atlanta 1-2 times a year pretty much for about 10 years now. I pick up my rental car at the Buckhead Marriott. Finally this past year on two different trips took the time to figure out the bus/MARTA system. Not to bad, but not overly obvious. And not something I'd suggest to the casual traveler.)

Getting on the bus and then getting off at Arts Center and then transferring to the train can be cumbersome if you're carrying any amount of luggage. It's definitely feasible just not very convenient which is always a huge factor in getting people people on the train.

http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-forward/20 ... ta_forward

Q: How is progress moving on the terminal?

Romanic: It’s moving along surprisingly quickly. All the stakeholders – including GRTA, Cobb County transit, Gwinnett County — have been instrumental in helping us understand the needs of their operations and what this station needs to be to work for them. It’s going tremendously well.

Q: Compared with other cities, how does Atlanta shape up as a potential site for a super passenger terminal?

Schuyler: It’s easy to look at these other stations happening around the country and think they have some great advantage that this site in Atlanta does not. But from our point of view, the site in Atlanta has some significant advantages in the way the infrastructure is set up today. The [existing] tracks and the streets are at two different levels, which makes it much easier to provide for connectivity for the streets and neighborhoods…. In Atlanta while there are certainly constraints, there’s actually significantly more flexibility to come up with ideal configurations for the elements and optimize the functional relationships and the urban relationships for the station, to really tune it correctly.

Romanic: This is the site of the original rail terminal in Atlanta, when the city was founded. The original city grew up around that terminal point.

Schuyler: In many ways this location and this opportunity are what transportation development is all about — locating a transit-rich facility in the middle of an underdeveloped urban area that has what we believe are great bones, and having the energy of a transportation center act as a catalyst for revitalization, for increased development and higher density than what is normally found in auto-dependent communities.

It goes on to talk about how the defeat of TSPLOST will not affect this project. However, they don't seem to mention Amtrak, although I would assume they'd want to use this location. One comment mentions Amtrak COULDN"T use it; is that right? I can't recall.

Jeff Smith wrote:http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-forward/20 ... ta_forward

*snip*

It goes on to talk about how the defeat of TSPLOST will not affect this project. However, they don't seem to mention Amtrak, although I would assume they'd want to use this location. One comment mentions Amtrak COULDN"T use it; is that right? I can't recall.

Yep. Just scroll up a bit in this topic where I talk about why it would lengthen the Crescent running time to use it and what would be required to use it without losing much time.

I do recall you saying that, Matt. It will be interesting to see what they come up with as an alternative for Amtrak, because without them, it's not really MMT is it? And CRT is way off in the horizon, too.