Need more cars? Try Michigan...

Seems like these ex-CB&Q cars are sort of just sitting there doing nothing. Anybody know when Metra got rid of these?


http://www.record-eagle.com/local/local ... 94150.html

They probably got rid of them before gas prices spiked and ridership soared. There are hundreds of ex-Metra cars all around the country which are for sale/lease and are doing nothing. That's why I have absolutely no sympathy when Metra complains about lack of funds to build new cars because they could get lots of there old ones back if they really wanted to. Theres about 30 of them sitting in Horicon WI collecting dust also.

What a waste. It would have made sense for Metra to keep at least a small redundant fleet hanging around for unforseen circumstances like the passenger spike and to push back buying new cars which they will need down the road for service expansions. Instead they just dumped as many cars as they could when the new ones came. And I thought the CBQ cars were tip-top and probably could have lasted at least five or ten years, but instead we're getting back VRE's rusted trash. Metra could probably get a good lease deal on those Budd's and they would be less of a maintenance headache than the Pullmans that probably needed a lot of work.

The sad thing is that they could have probably completely rebuilt the cars for a fraction of what the new cars cost, and the older cars are much more sturdy. I read somewhere that those carbodies were built to last forever. Budd sure knew how to put out a good product.

Fact for consideration: There was a stipulation included with the funding package which Metra recieved and ultimately resulted in the delivery of the 8500-series cabs, 6100-series coaches and 1200-series Highliners. I was told about this by a Metra civil engineer who gave a lecture earlier this fall down at U of I in Champaign. This stipulation required that they dispose of the equipment they were replacing and keep their total amount of cars at a certain pre-determined number. I'm not a politician or bean counter but I would guess this was included to keep unused assets (i.e., cars) from sitting around Metra's facilities idle, and to also encourage those older cars to be passed on to newer agencies who could use them (such as VRE or MCS). Obviously when it was written, no one could have imagined 2008's ridership crunch.

I would also stop short of calling Metra shortsighted for not purchasing/leasing the old CB&Q cars back. There are lots of reasons why those cars may/may not have been preferable/available, but ultimately the people at Metra made their choice and the smooth-sided cars are the ones which are currently back in Chicago. I trust their judgement because Metra's reliability and reputation always has and still blows away comparable agencies' respective figures. Obviously they know what they're doing.

I think part of the problem is that Metra has never really been able to replace ALL of its older cars at once, as is done elsewhere. The most recent order of Nippon-Sharyo equipment (aka the 6000 series coaches & 85/8600 cabs) has been the only recent order to date that was intended to fully replace older equipment. The MK/Amerail cars also enabled the retirement of some older Budd & Pullmans, but they've actually wound up augmenting the current fleet, which was necessary due to the service expansions over the past decade. So now you've got a mix of old and new, plus a few re-acquisitions, and while it doesn't make sense to have an excessive amount of redundant equipment just sitting around, retaining a few older cars as a "surge" fleet wouldn't hurt either, though admittedly, striking the right balance between the two can be hard to know.

Byte, thanks for the additional insight, very informative...

Yeah, thanks for the interesting tidbit, Byte.

I have to second the sentiment that Metra seems to know what they are doing. Metra has one of the largest networks, best relations with Class I's, and longest histories of the North American commuter systems. They also inherited one of the biggest messes at inception, on par with NJT and MNCR. Think about what they do:
-Run their own trains and contract some otheres out.
-Three state operation
-Five Class I RR's to deal with (No KCS, CSX) plus Amtrak, IAIS, CSS Freight - much heavier freight traffic than any other network except maybe Metrolink.
-Seven legacy railroads including bankrupt RI and MILW - distinct from the bankrupt PC/CNJ/RDG as there was no gov't bailout for those roads, and no conrail to run their trains.
-Today operate all/part of 12 routes plus four branches.
-One basic prime mover design, two generations (F40, MP36)
-Total stainless steel gallery car fleet, save for highliner I and occasional carbon-steel gallery car.

edit: per scotty's comments below, CSX operates over the Rock and the only Class I not interfaced with is KCS.

-Five Class I RR's to deal with (No KCS, CSX)

CSX has trackage rights on the old Rock Island. Not only that; CSXT spcificly ordered 25 GP15T's to work the ex-Rock Island.

Are these cars the same or different from the ex-Burlington cars that had been in Horicon, WI?

SlowFreight wrote:Are these cars the same or different from the ex-Burlington cars that had been in Horicon, WI?

I know there the same type but I don't think there the exact same ones. There are hundreds of these ex-Metra cars all over the country.

There may be dozens of ex-Metra carbon steel stock floating around, but only one batch of Budd-built cars has been disposed. Don't know the cab car series, but it was all 700-series trailers.

I have to disagree that Metra knows what it is doing, based on conversations with some employees. I get the impression that management can't find their butts with both hands.

They can't wait to get rid of the Pullman cars, practically giving them away in some cases. Now they're buying them back, having to pay more for them, and then needing to refurbish them because they were not maintained by the previous owner.

They retire probably the best fleet of locomotives they had because they were "too old and costly to rebuild." However, the F40PHs that are to be rebuilt now are as old, or older than the F40Cs were when they were retired.

I won't even start with the new locomotives and rolling stock.

F40CFan wrote:I have to disagree that Metra knows what it is doing, based on conversations with some employees. I get the impression that management can't find their butts with both hands.

They can't wait to get rid of the Pullman cars, practically giving them away in some cases. Now they're buying them back, having to pay more for them, and then needing to refurbish them because they were not maintained by the previous owner.

They retire probably the best fleet of locomotives they had because they were "too old and costly to rebuild." However, the F40PHs that are to be rebuilt now are as old, or older than the F40Cs were when they were retired.

I won't even start with the new locomotives and rolling stock.

Most employees think that they can run the railroad better than management. In most cases they are wrong.

Agreed. Railroaders are very good at operations and moving trains. Finance guys and lawyers are very good at dealing with shippers, politicians, and regulators. Just as an engineer would ridicule a foamer for telling him how to operate a heavy train on a grade, then money men and lawyers will laugh if you really think you can steer the ship that is a railroad because you read Trains mag. There is two caveats to my statement: 1. Management and T&E can learn something from each other and should - they need each other to generate revenue and make sure the bills get paid and the paychecks go out and hopefully go up. 2. Being a T&E or manager doesn't guarantee god-like accuracy in your given profession - there are real Aces out there, and there are real Duds out there in each group.

One of my backgrounds is leading a government-funded establishment. When your legislative oversight groups gives you money, it gets spent or they take it back with the idea that you don't really need the money. In the case of the new bilevels of MP's, Metra told congress they needed money for new power and cars. The deal they cut was "get rid of your old stuff and we'll fund the new stuff". It was a use-it-or-lose it proposition, and Metra used it. The legislative intent was likely that an established group got sparkling new bilevels while startups got discount bilevels to get started for less than full price - IE Nashville or Utah.

Bottom line, don't believe everything you hear. I can think of instances on this board where a few management types disagree on how "things really work" or a few T&E guys disagree on how things "really work".

Another take-home in this affair - railroaders mostly hate new equipment. If you check out this board well enough, you'll find hate towards the PL42, DE/DM30, MP36, M7, and HHP8. You cannot expect new tech equipment to work as well as something that's had the bugs worked out for 30 years, especially when the R&D was spread out over a 30-unit order of MP36 (total production run <500 units) instead of a 300-unit order of SD70MAC (with 3000+ unit production run), as the first BN order was in 1993.

F40CFan wrote: They can't wait to get rid of the Pullman cars, practically giving them away in some cases. Now they're buying them back, having to pay more for them, and then needing to refurbish them because they were not maintained by the previous owner.

I addressed this above after talking with someone from Metra. Metra was required to rid themselves of the smooth-sided bilevels as per the terms of the Illinois FIRST funding bill which paid for the new cars. They were "given" away because they were purchased (from the C&NW & RI), maintained, and in some cases rehabilitated with government money, and thus if another government agency (like VRE) wanted those cars they had the opportunity to acquire them at little to no cost through a federal transfer of assets procedure.

Edit: Well put, Tad.