Major derailment @ Spuyten Duyvil

There is information out there. William Rockefeller's own lawyer has described what his client told him:

What Rockefeller remembers is “operating the train, coming to a section where the track was still clear — then, all of a sudden, feeling something was wrong,” Chartier said. “He felt something was not right, and he hit the brakes.” Link

I understand there is a feeling here that no one should use the word "asleep" to describe what happened to Rockefeller. His lawyer, Jeffrey P. Chartier, described his client as suffering from “highway hypnosis." But the statement, "...all of a sudden, feeling something was wrong...He felt something was not right..." sounds like someone who was having a micro sleep event. You don't feel yourself going to sleep. You're not aware you're asleep. When you snap out of it you're only aware that, exactly as he said, something just happened.

Bottalico the union rep said basically the same thing.

Bottalico casually mentioned that Rockefeller had described himself as having nodded off before the derailment. When pressed, Bottaclico realized his error in acknowledging responsibility, and he quickly changed up: “People use the word ‘zoned out,’ ‘nod,’ ‘fell asleep,’ … I’m not a sleep expert.” Link

Bottalico got in trouble for saying it and he later added:

It's best that it comes from him what happened. He's a quality human being. I know him personally. I've been a conductor and representative, and I'd be proud to have him as my engineer." Link

For my part, the incident took place seven weeks ago. It's a major event, something people will be talking about for years to come. Why wouldn't we be discussing it? It is being discussed on message boards all over the place and the discussion here has been very restrained compared to some comments I've seen. If somebody wants to start calling people names, they always do that. So what else is new?

Mr Boylan the engineer is fully aware he probably never ever run another train, not only because of company, but he is devastated by the accident.
We as his fellow employees, do hope the railroad will at least give him another job, putting him in unemployment line makes no sense.
only time will tell.

And Mr Meehan, let it be known that Mr Botalico does not represent the engineers on any railroad, he is Conductor representative.

DutchRailnut wrote:We as his fellow employees, do hope the railroad will at least give him another job, putting him in unemployment line makes no sense. only time will tell.

I hope so too and I wrote that in a message weeks ago. Others expressed the same hope including Noel Weaver.

Realistically I don't know if that will happen. Let's face it. On most jobs, with most businesses, you zone out and cause a major accident. Four people lose their lives. Dozens of people wind up in the hospital. There's millions of dollars in equipment damage. The company is looking at liability that will probably reach into the hundreds of millions of dollars. With most employers you're going to be out the door.

So yes, only time will tell. I hope they keep him working. It's not like he did this on purpose. He was doing what he was supposed to be doing and something went very wrong. I hope they keep him working but I realize that's asking a lot.

In 1951, there was a train wreck in Woodbridge, NJ which killed 85 people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodbridge_train_wreck The Pennsy blamed the engineer who had taken a temporary curve too fast. (The railroad was guilty of violating its own rules and was at least complicit and maybe responsible but it never admitted this.) The Pennsy, never known for its decent treatment of its employees (only installed automatic stokers when Federal law required), gave the engineer another job on the railroad after the wreck.

What kind of job did the engineer, Joseph Fitzsimmons, get with the Pennsy afterward? Do you know?

The only thing I was able to find out about Mr Fitzsimmons is that he retired in 1953. You can send a query to the RRB, but I don't know if that agency would know the job title the man had when he retired. I might have asked RRB anyway but the query would cost $27.

DutchRailnut wrote:Mr Boylan the engineer is fully aware he probably never ever run another train, not only because of company, but he is devastated by the accident.
We as his fellow employees, do hope the railroad will at least give him another job, putting him in unemployment line makes no sense.
only time will tell.

I fully agree with this one. There is too much valuable knowledge to waste for the railroad and the engineer did not do any drugs nor alcohol involved. In any event there is NO COMPARISON with Ricky Gates who deliberately violated numerous rules and was proven to be involved with drugs when he caused the Chase, Maryland incident. Gates got what he deserved.
Noel Weaver

I second Mr. Weaver's comment. Engineer Gates was found to have been smoking marijuana while operating the locomotive and lied to investigators re: signal aspects. There really is no comparison to Engineer Rockefeller who has been candid with investigators from the start and was completely sober.

justalurker66 wrote:Don't forget that politicians think that they are the smartest person in the room - put on this earth to solve other people's problems regardless of how much they really know. Getting them to back away from their own self importance and opinions is difficult.

Politicians represent the people they serve, at best (you know, the same scholars whose comments you read on cbslocal.com), and the people that pay to get them elected at the worst (maybe not like Metro North, but various companies that are affected by the same laws that Metro North are). Most things politicians do are for the consumption of these two groups in mind, with a sprinkling of ego/quest for power stuff thrown in. Accusing a politician of "thinking they know better" isn't saying much -- they're elected to represent their constituencies, which no doubt also "think they know better" despite not being particularly informed.

Patrick Boylan wrote:But what difference does that make? Rested or not, he still was responsible for a fatal accident, and some foamer, drooler, or muck raking reporter saying so does not constitute drawing, hanging, tarring, feathering, or pilloring.

I am not attempting to get him "quartered and hung" ... but I do wonder what he has done to deserve the loyalty and devotion of other engineers enough that they want him to remain employed. While they make the argument (without proof) that he did "nothing wrong" he isn't exactly a hero who saved lives. Why the reward? Why does he deserve a job any more than anyone else?

Or is this just some hope that if they screw up as much as this engineer did (losing situational awareness for long enough to lead to a fatal accident) that they too will be able to keep their job?

I hate the phrase "there is no comparison", especially since Noel and Head end ARE comparing, Gates and Rockefeller, as am I. And nobody's answering my complaint about Dutch's comment "yet the rail droolers have him quartered and hung", to which I've tried to say that I don't think rail droolers have done any such thing. Can anyone point me to to any evidence that shows rail droolers, or anyone else, drawing and quartering him?

I picked Gates because I thought that would have been a good example of someone whom many would feel deserved to get severe punishment. Did droolers draw and quarter him?

Even if he deserved what he got, I don't believe that Gates set out each day and said "I hope these drugs I take will impair me so much that I cause a fatal accident" any more than I believe that Rockefeller set out any morning and said "I hope I can be inattentive sometime and cause a fatal accident". As Tommy Meehan said, it's not as if he did it on purpose.

Several of you have agreed that Rockefeller will probably never be an engineer again, and have said you hope he gets some sort of railroad job. Please give me some examples of what you think are railroad jobs you think he should get that will keep us from wasting his valuable talents.

I remember one engineer whom blew a restriction many years ago on Conrail who was provided with a job helping with rules classes where he lectured about the importance of bulletin orders, flagmen, signal indications and paying attention to your job. He did very well at that and when his time of suspension was up he went back to running trains all the wiser. I remember another engineer who came out of train service whom had a problem staying awake while running a train, he blew the signal going in to Selkirk at CP-SK, he never again ran an engine for Conrail to my knowledge but he admitted fault and after serving time for this very serious offense the railroad allowed him to return as a conductor. Another case many years earlier with an engineer whom had a drug problem and failed the "Pee in the bottle test", the railroad allowed him to fill an opening as a ticket agent and I don't recall the disposition of this one but I don't he ever returned as an engineer even though he probably cleaned up his act enough to remain in a less critical position. This gentleman could probably function in such a capacity or maybe he could assist in the dispatcher's office, sell tickets somewhere or fill some other position that the railroad would have had to hire somebody off the street for. He might even be able to fill a position as a conductor or trainman. It costs a lot of bucks to train folks in the operations end of the railroad and I know he screwed up badly but his knowledge is too valuable to just throw away. The question of loyalty was raised here, I haven't run a train for Metro-North since 1987 and that was before this gentleman entered engine service so I did not and do not know him. I am only going by what has been said here and told to me by people still working for Metro-North whom I stay in touch with. I am not saying reward him but I am saying that his knowledge of railroading is too valuable to just throw away.
Noel Weaver

Because this engineer did nothing willfully wrong, I think the odds are good he will still have a job with MN. But that will be after he serves whatever punishment that the railroad, NTSB and FRA give him, and that could add up to years away from the railroad. I do seriously doubt he will ever be an engineer again, but I'm sure he could find some other job to fill with MN.

A different road, but I remember a dispatcher who (per the NTSB) failed to control his trains and ended up causing a head on collision costing $2.4 million (1985) and injuring 79. His punishment included being demoted to engineer where a few years later he proved his value to the railroad by running an absolute stop signal, killing 7 and injuring 95.

If Metro-North wants to take a chance with this engineer it is up to them ... but I don't see the point. I suppose it would be safe if he never ran a train again .., but I don't see whey he should take the job of someone on the way up who could run a train.

I know there are some on here whom will not agree with me but I don't see any reason that this individual couldn't run equipment again in yard service only. For a long time various railroads with something like this would bar an engineer from road assignments and allow him to work in the yard on a yard only status. Some of them were restricted for medical but others were restricted because of a major accident or rules violation or maybe more than one violation. Both benefited, the engineer was still able to work and provide for himself and his family and the railroad still had a qualified engineer for a job even though it was a yard job. Metro-North doesn't have very many yard only jobs but the last I knew they had a small number of "MU Jobs" in Grand Central Terminal on the first trick and I think one on the middle trick. Their jobs was to switch MU equipment from one track to another when it came time to split or make up a train, make cuts when let's say an 8 car train came in from maybe Harmon and they wanted the equipment to make up two four car trains out of GCT. Most of these MU assignments were engineer only jobs but I think they also had one MU conductor whom could work with one of the MU engineers in the event it became necessary. Various engineers whom were restricted for one reason or another have been allowed to work these jobs. Even back in the New Haven days we had a small number of yard only engineers; one got in trouble making a move with the old green MUTS and they got away from him in GCT on one of the ladder tracks going from the lower to upper level while he was changing ends to run the cars back in to the house, this guy got yarded and confined to Oak Point or Harlem River (barred out of GCT by the New York Central), another engineer blew the home signal for the bridge at Cos Cob on track three and derailed most of his train in the AM rush hour and generally tied up the line for quite a while; he was fired but brought back yard only and eventually he also got local and through freight but he never ran a passenger train again. We had two engineers with serious heart problems and both of them were appointed to official jobs as rules examiners and both of them were good at it too. As for this engineer, if he gets a job of some sort at least he will still have an income and protect his pension and the railroad will have the services of an experienced railroader; remember it costs a lot of money to train somebody to be a conductor or engineer and many other jobs on the railroad require some sort of training too. Both can benefit from something like this.
Noel Weaver