M3/M7 Track 7/8 Make inpact at Jamaica

henry6 wrote:Don't confuse cell phone use for work with cell phone use for non-work. Chatting with your girlfriend about tonite or your buddies about the ball game distracts you from your job and safety. Useing the cell phone to get proper instructions for effeciency and safety is what you are there for. Not being able to descern the difference, to me, means you are not a career railroader but rather someone who just wants a paycheck, underscoring my earlier postings. (Moderator: sorry if this sounds brutal, but it is a great example of my earlier posts and the point begs to be made.)

Well said H6, well said.

"lateral" move, Thanks for the Lingo.

I had a feeling they had some "inside" term for it.

The rule in question clearly states that the use of devices such as a cellphone are acceptable if used for the company, not for personal use. The engineer is not supposed to copy orders when operating the train.

Same as reading publications. If you're reading the newspaper, it's a no no. If you're reading the timetable, it's OK.

Jay

I might have missed it.. is there any report stating that the engineer was using a cellphone and that was the cause of the accdient? Or is this supposition, or inside info?

There was no report that the engineer on the Babylon train was using a cell phone in this incident. I did, however, relate a story of a ride I had about two years ago during which I overheard the engineer answering her phone several times and talking to people about things other than operating the train. BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN SUCH A REPORT IN THIS INCIDENT! (I shout for emphasis and to relieve anyone else of responsibility for bringing this into the discussion.)

henry6 wrote: I did, however, relate a story of a ride I had about two years ago during which I overheard the engineer answering her phone several times and talking to people about things other than operating the train

I can top that: an engineer knocking back a few cans of Coors Light on an evening rush hour run. Downright dangerous, and as far as I know, illegal as well.

The report that the engineer was on his/her cell phone is B.S. It's just another way to start rumors that wasn't true. As far as I'm concerned, cell phone use while operating a train, let alone riding a bike is dangerous. But on that note, the cell phone has been very valuable to me at work. There have been many times that I needed to use it just so that I may contact the rest of my crew, especially when the communications don't work on board. (and that happens more often than you think). I've been able to call 204 on several occassions and was even forced to rely on the cell phone to make a move into the yard when all communications on board with the exception of the buzzers was not functioning. The Conductor who was at the back was in contact with me, and would read me the signal aspects while I relay that to my engineer. If cell phones are used properly, and not for the purpose of arguing with your wife and stuff like that, then it could be a good asset for RR operations.

No one is disputing you, Mark. What I saw and heard several years ago was true and not rumour, the engineer was receiving and making calls unrelated to work. AND I REPEAT: it is not true of the present Jamaica situation. Use of a cell phone to do your job is ok but to talk with friends, etc., distracts one from concentrating from the job is dangerous.

well the subject has firmly shifted from the impact at Jamaica to cell phone use and LIRR tests, so I'll add my 2 cents...

I have taken engineer tests for LIRR, CSA, and NJT. I have been told by personnel, transportation, and/or rules department employees of LIRR, NJT, and Amtrak, "our tests are the hardest." Sounds like a training department point of pride... My opinion is that NJT and LIRR are about equal. For Amtrak, I can only speak about PC testing (below).

I think what makes LIRR's tests hard is the unmerciful grading! For example, a PC test might have a 5 point question: draw Divide. So you draw and lable the tracks, signals, switches, and platforms perfectly, BUT forget to put the little arrow indicating which way is east, which means the whole thing is wrong, and there go all 5 points from your score. The company's rationale is that if you forget one little detail on the test, God only knows what you might forget in the field. I disagree, but hey its their railroad. Another exception I take to LIRRs testing (and a reason the tests are so hard for some) is the reliance on memorization. The famous question "What is the difference between 251 and 261" is supposed to be answered by parroting those two rules verbatim. Leave out a word and you're wrong. Have absolutlely no idea what you're talking about, but spell it right, and you're right! And memorizing all those definitions (what are there, around 50?) and then getting 2 or 3 on the test certainly raises your stress, but I'm not sure it makes you a better railroader. It is feasible that an extremely dedicated student who dosent speak English or even use the Arabic alphbet in his daily life could pass an LIRR rules test through memorization! OK I'm kidding about that.

As for PC tests, LIRR, CSA, and NJT do written and verbal, and Amtrak does verbal only. All three of the passenger RRs I was tested on had their share of UNMERCIFUL verbal exams. The written ones were detailed but easy to pass as long as you know your stuff. A three-way tie. The reference in a previous post to open book testing applies to CSA, in my personal experience. They give you a generic test no matter what line you qualify, so by the third time you pretty much know the questions in order. They put you in a room alone with the door shut, after reminding you to bring your timetable and maps, and off you go! The verbal is a rubber stamp, too. I should say, this is as of about 5-6 years ago, maybe things are better now. But it was a joke IMO.

As for cell phones, I am currently working for NJT, and cell phones are not even allowed to be turned on in the engines or operating compartments of MUs or cab cars. The only exception would be for RR business in an emergency. No loss, except I liked using my phone's stopwatch feature for speedometer checks at the measured miles. And of course it takes away a "legitimate communication" option.

So what's going on vis-a-vis the impact at Jamaica, anyway?

anyone got an actuall site with video on it

de402 wrote:

Overall, the sides of the M-7's did well in holding the impact as neither car had been punctured or ripped.

It should, its a rolling bank vault on trucks. Don't forget that at 140,000lbs its signifigantly heavier.

The M7s weight 128,000lbs.

Correct frank the M-7 is 128 000 or 10 000 lesss than a M2 B car

mark, if you use your cell to make moves...word of advice..if you collide into something don't tell them you used it for that. They aren't even allowed to use the Nextel Direct Connect for switching moves (per FRA).

KFC, Mark is like any new Engineer Trainee..he's full of vigor and upbeat. You know how it is. You say you took the Engineer exams on the LIRR? Did you ever qualify there because I don't know anyone who ever qualified as an Engineer on the Long Island and quit to work at NJT.

If you are comparing the non-compensated class instruction and tests to actual LIRR Engineer qualifying it's not even close. Those tests and instruction are just an introduction and an indicator to the LIRR that you have the ability to pass the actual tests to qualify.

Mark will upon the mid-point mark in his training have to pass a rules test, the next day..a PC test and the following day an Air Brake test. Right after that, he will have about 2 weeks of Train Handling. You get 2 chances to pass, if you fail your out. If he gets 100% on his written exams and fails a train handling test twice he is out. If he fails a written test twice he won't even get to train handling.

At the end of his training he will once again have a Rules test, next day PC test, the following day an Air Brake test then right after that 2 weeks of train handling. He will be tested on the LIRR twice and whatever was not asked at the mid-point exams will be asked at the finals.

All his tests will include written and verbal. His Air Brake will be written and a practical test. His Train Handling will be him not only running a train but also describing to a Road Foreman the terrain and PC ahead as they progress.

If during any test he gets just one signal aspect or indication worng, they won't even continue grading his test..he failed.

These are the tests that Mark is referring to..not the pre-employment nonsense they give.

I am NOT saying this to indicate that the Long Island is any harder or better or anything like that compared to other roads. I never took any other railroads tests and am making no opinion on that. But unless you did what was described in the preceding paragraphs, you did not take any LIRR Engineer tests.

Or did you?

So do we have any more information relative to this thread? I mean do we really know what happened here? Arguing about who hires off the streets and where we saw engineers use cell phones in other incidents seem like suitable topics for this forum, but they seem to deviate from this thread.

Any more hard facts we can post?

Anything posted on this thread is speculation and rumors. There is one way the truth will come out, and that is in the official accident report.

You have to remember that all parties involved in the incident are facing serious charges, and some may have their job in jeapardy. Posting things here that may or may not be true (i.e. talking on a cell phone) help to hide the truth. Please remember that a lot of people read this forum, possibly those who are investigating the incident.

The truth will evenutally come out. Everyone needs to be patient.

Jay