LIRR Signals

Did the LIRR ever feature its parents (PRR) style signals. If not did they have a unique style to themselves or a similar style to another RR?

Most definitely!!!

All the old-style position light signals that were in place were all of the Pennsy standard.

Also, the old style unattended block station signals / block limit station signals were a Pennsy introduction when the "K" card system was placed in service in the 1928 employee timetable.

Here's an example taken back in 1970 at "MS" showing both the old PRR-style position light signals AND the unattended block station signals lower down on the mast, complete with call letters. The smaller, single signals jutting off to the right of the position light signals are the train order signals. (This view is looking west towards the Mastic-Shirley station, visible in the background.):


And, going back to semaphore days, here's an example, taken in 1940, of KO at Ronkonkoma, displaying both the Pennsy-style semaphore signals, as well as the unattended block station signals lower down on the mast. (This view is looking east.):


Dave Keller

There is the vestiges of the Pennsy all over the LIRR. Much of it is not really noticeable unless you work there..such as the "lingo". We call a caboose a hack (PRR), when an Engr Trainee qualifies we call it being "set-up"(PRR), being released from duty early "early quit"(PRR), working afternoons and evenings is "half-nights"(PRR), when a Signal Maintainer qualifies he is "made"(PRR), a Block Operator trainee is a "Poster"(PRR)..our Rule Book is Pennsy designed in format as well as the Safety Rules Book. Look at Jamaica Station.. the main office building has keystones all over it as well as the overhang on the side entrance. They even used the "wooden block" system in the Crew Mgt office and a form of it with magnets remains...again typical PRR.

If you look hard and better yet work there, there is PRR everywhere..you just have to look and know it when you see or hear it.

When I trained to be an extra ticket clerk, we, too, "posted" at our
training location under a senior clerk.

Some other Pennsy items:

While its ownership on paper dated as far back as 1900, its VISIBLE
ownership came into force in the 1920s.

The policy of adding general orders to the back of the ETT (or, with the
older, bound ETTs, sticking them in by licking or moistening the dry
adhesive on their backs) was a PRR feature.

The "K" card system and permissive block system was a PRR feature (1928).

Prior to 1950, most of the stations had cast-iron station signs hanging from
the ends of their covered platforms, with the name incorporated around a
keystone. Ditto for the towers and cabins, but they were wooden keystones.

Prior to 1928, general orders were not posted in ETTs.

General orders I've read from 1906-1907 all required the employee to paste
the order(s) in a ledger-type book, which was kept separate from the ETT.

The listing of the stations, block stations, block limit stations, etc. in
the front 11+ pages of the ETT was also a PRR feature.

Ever hear the term "Engineman?" Yup . . . Pennsy. It referred to both the
engineer AND the fireman.

Design and layout of rulebooks were identical. Training manuals were
interchangeable and every LIRR trainman and engineman carried Pennsy air
brake, etc. instruction manuals around with them.

Kerosene hand lanterns stamped "PRR" on the rim were in everyday use on the
LIRR, as was the ubiquitous red, flag-fusee-torpedo holder slung over many a
trainman's shoulder.

Employee cap badges worn from the early 1920s to about 1948 were of the
Pennsy style as was the blue uniform. The gray uniform of the early 1960s
was a distinct effort to break away from the Pennsy influence as was the
Tichy color scheme for the passenger cars in the early-mid 1950s. Prior to
that it was PRR Tuscan Red.

The old LIRR logo was the Pennsy's Keystone logo, only with "LIRR"
intertwined inside in lieu of "PRR." Ditto for the uniform buttons!

Lots of ties to the PRR heritage.

Dave Keller

The overpass at Hillside Ave., at the former Richmond Hill station ,still had the keystone molded into the concrete above the street when I last saw it.
Is the keystone still on the Valley Stream station?

dukeoq,

Long gone now for the Keystones at Valley Stream.

I dont know if the Tower ever had them, but the waiting room shur did on the top on each side of the name [*VALLEY STREAM*] and the keystones has "LIRR" in them. it would be very nice to restore them as they did on both cederherst and belmore

Form 19 mentioned us calling cabooses "hacks". The official term used in the timetable is Cabin Cars, also taken from the Pennsy.

Jay

The LIRR did differ from the PRR in never adopting the MEDIUM APPROACH aspect which is --- over flashing /. Before 195x if you were going to diverge to a stop you would see an approach medium and then a plain approach as Approach called for MEDIUM speed anyway so no harm no foul. The PRR proper felt that it was important to inform the engineer that he or she was diverging to a stop. The LIRR also did not adopt LIMITED speed signals, even utilizing the yellow triangle in place of the flashing lower |.

Hi JJ - Keystones are still up on that viaduct at Richmond Hill, was there the other day to pay my respects to Jahn's Ice Cream... yum yum

Hi Dave..

On the timeslips for Engineers, they still refer to the Engineer as "Engineman"..the publications and LIRR forms are labeled as "C.T...or A.D.L..." and so on which is PRR.

The 1903 LIRR Rules of the Operating Dept. (Pennsy) was written in the PRR standard..such as letter rules in the beginning, definitions and the layout were Pennsy standard even as early as 1903 and is published that way to this day.

Hi Jason, I didn't know that the name "Cabin Car" originated with the PRR. That's pretty neat. On NYAR do you guys call them "hacks" as a knickname like we do on the LIRR?

It's really something how the procedures, slang, terms and so forth of a long dead company are still very much in use everyday. Such simple things that nobody ever gave much thought to still live on and hold so much importance.

I understand that having tracks numbered as "0 Track" is also a Pennsy left over. I don't know if that is true or not.

While "Cabin Car" was definitely a PRR term, I've NEVER heard a LIRR man, either active or retired, call a caboose a cabin car. They always called them "the hack."

I'm talking as far back as veterans whose date of birth was 1888 and earlier when I knew them in the late 1960's!!!

Always referred to as "the hack."

Dave Keller

P.S. Form 19: Thanx for the info on the book of rules. I checked my archive and I have a LIRR book of rules from 1910. While not in the long, vertical format that became famous on the Pennsy so it could be carried easier in the trainman's jacket pocket, it was of small book format and the rules are numbered up to #729, with illustrations of marker lights, lantern signalling and sample copies of train orders and form A and C clearance cards. DK

Hi Pappy:

1951 B.O.R. had a pale blue cover and it read "The Pennsylvania Railroad - Book of Rules"

1954 B.O.R. had a cover the color of a manilla folder, and it read "The Long Island Rail Road - Book of Rules"

1956 B.O.R. had a black cover and read "The Pennsylvania Railroad - Book of Rules."

1966 B.O.R. had a light green cover and read "The Long Island Rail Road Company - Book of Rules"

Don't know why they went back to Pennsy B.O.R. in 1956 AFTER using their own name in 1954, but I have two (2) copies, both with LIRR trainmen's names and employee numbers printed in each one, so they WERE used on the LIRR. I also have verification from the late retired conductor Jeff Skinner that they were in effect on the LIRR in 1956.

Dave Keller

Yes, we call them hacks over here as well.

As Dave mentioned, the only place that I've heard them called Cabin Cars on Long Island is in the rulebook. Everyone calls them hacks.

Jay