• Lackawanna Cutoff Passenger Service Restoration

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by ExCon90
 
There was a stone plaque outside the east portal of the West Shore tunnel through the Palisades showing N. Y. W. S. & B. R. R. and the year. It is now mounted on a rock placed alongside the walkway from the parking lot to the Tonnelle Ave. station of the HBLR, which runs through the tunnel. Just took some imagination and couldn't have cost much--and a lot more people will see it than ever saw it at the tunnel portal.
  by CRB
 
photobug56 wrote: Wed Sep 13, 2023 2:32 pm And in some cases, regulators need some ability to use common sense, like in a case like this, where 24 feet was beyond insignificant.
Without knowing the engineering reason for the limit, hard to say whether the extra 24 feet is significant or not.

Besides, how else would the favored contractor get another $2 million of taxpayer funds?
  by photobug56
 
That's my point - there should be a way for the entity involved to apply for an override based on evidence that it would do no harm, and for regulators to consider it. The basic concept of a limit makes sense, but considering that coal fueled steamers pulled trains through it, in this case, maybe it would be fine with a reasonably modern diesel. Or not.

As to point 2, true enough!
  by lensovet
 
What does the age of the diesel have anything to do with evacuation requirements?

This is about being able to evacuate the tunnel in a timely manner in case of emergency. If anything, modern humans are slower than those from a century ago given their modern sedentary lifestyle and tendency to pay zero attention to what's going on around them and stare into their phones all day instead.
  by lensovet
 
Btw a simple Google search for "fra tunnel length limits" yields this as the top hit (emphasis mine):
FRA wrote: In May 1987, a New Jersey Transit Rail Operations, Inc., passenger train, en route from New York City to New Jersey, pulled the catenary down behind itself and came to a stop in the North River Tunnel under the Hudson River. After a delay, some 700 passengers were evacuated from the train, led for 1/2 mile along a tunnel walkway and then, up several flights of stairs to an open area in Weehawken. There were no serious injuries, but there were several cases of heat prostration and there was personal inconvenience on a monumental scale.

This incident led the Federal Railroad Administration to question the nature of planned improvements in the North River Tunnels and the safety status of tunnels elsewhere in the country through which passenger trains operate. A response to the first issue was readily assembled based on the extensive betterments underway then and planned for this facility. Assessing the quality of passenger train safety in all tunnels utilized in the United States by conventional trains (as opposed to rail rapid transit) required a more extended effort. This report is the result of that investigation.

In order to limit the number of structures surveyed to the longer ones that could be expected to present more impediments to the safe and orderly withdrawal of disabled-train passengers, tunnels of less than 1,000 feet in length were excluded. This limitation is reasonable considering that passenger trains seldom consist of less than four cars and often have many more cars than this implying a minimum total train length of 400 or more feet. Most likely, a train of this or greater length will have either the head or rear end close to or outside of a tunnel portal should an unplanned stop occur in a tunnel less than 1,000 feet long.
  by photobug56
 
lensovet wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:45 am What does the age of the diesel have anything to do with evacuation requirements?

This is about being able to evacuate the tunnel in a timely manner in case of emergency. If anything, modern humans are slower than those from a century ago given their modern sedentary lifestyle and tendency to pay zero attention to what's going on around them and stare into their phones all day instead.
So it's not about ventilation of diesel smoke? And the requirement, if your tunnel is longer, to add ventilation? Regardless, tiny amounts over 1000 feet MIGHT not be a big deal, and my point was about modern diesel locos putting out far less pollution.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Why couldn't they have just Daylighted the thing?

Really, when I-80 was.chopped through PA, was anyone really concerned about Hootie, Sam, and Tuffy. They all got the message and found new homes.

You'd think they were trying to chop down minority neighborhoods such as they were when proposing, in DC, to connect 395 with 95 where it intersects 295.
  by CharlieL
 
I could be mistaken, but I believe DL&W's original plan was to daylight it, but after studying the geology they decided such constant maintenance would be required, that a tunnel was more economically feasible. Same rule applies here: removing and disposing of the rock, and constant maintenance of the slope would be very expensive, as well as the risk to the equipment of rock slides especially during inclement weather.
  by frank754
 
Well the old CNJ tunnel north of White Haven according to my search is about 4,600 ft long and I don't think there's ever been any improvements to that, it seems like it was the same it was built in the 19th century.
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
No; the CNJ along the Lehigh River has long since been chopped up.

I rode it September '60 on a CNJ fan trip. This is where I first met The Late Noel Weaver.

That was a scenic ride; it is also where I learned that Budd RDC's were simply an overgrown bus, and have had little use for such ever since. But lest I note, the Rolls Royce DMU units on both the NdeM and the CHP were even worse.
  by cjvrr
 
Its all about limiting liability. Doesn't matter if it is 1 foot over 1,000 or 24 feet over. Cutting off the extra bit will keep NJT from having to justify why they couldn't meet the regulation and save millions if a lawsuit was ever to occur.

Can you imagine the field day the lawyer would have arguing that NJT could have cut off the extra 24' for a $100,000 or less and didn't do it on a $100,000,000 project?
photobug56 wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 2:26 pm
lensovet wrote: Wed Sep 20, 2023 8:45 am What does the age of the diesel have anything to do with evacuation requirements?

This is about being able to evacuate the tunnel in a timely manner in case of emergency. If anything, modern humans are slower than those from a century ago given their modern sedentary lifestyle and tendency to pay zero attention to what's going on around them and stare into their phones all day instead.
So it's not about ventilation of diesel smoke? And the requirement, if your tunnel is longer, to add ventilation? Regardless, tiny amounts over 1000 feet MIGHT not be a big deal, and my point was about modern diesel locos putting out far less pollution.
  by amtrakowitz
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:No; the CNJ along the Lehigh River has long since been chopped up …
JFTR, NS crosses the Delaware on the CNJ bridge, and runs through the CNJ part of Phillipsburg Union Station. The CNJ main is derelict through Easton station; Bethlehem station has a single track. NS’ Allentown hump yard is very much on former CNJ property, accessed from the Lehigh Line via the former Reading bridge across the river just west of Bethlehem Union Station. Former CNJ is active between Allentown and Lehighton, with the former LV having become a rail trail; going into Jim Thorpe, active rails return to the former LVRR, with the former CNJ station in Jim Thorpe being active for Reading & Northern tour trains (of late being powered by #425 or #2102).
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