increased fare and drastically reduced service

Perhaps the LIRR could save money on WH branch operations by adjusting train consists to meet current demand. This afternoon I noticed a six-car set of M-7s sitting on the holding track east of the Valley Stream station. In the good, old days, two MP54s were more than enough to handle the shuttle traffic.

Why not run WH as a two car NJT style 'dinky' run?

I was going to mention running a 2car train during off peak hrs. but i herd somthing about the leinght of a 2 car MU will not fit over all the crossings due to the leinght of the 3rd rail gap or so i herd about 6 yrs ago at valley one nite.

2 car MU set is out of the question on LIRR because if M/A goes down and/or D-4 air compressor, you're out of luck if they can't be reset. There is only one M/A and one air compressor per pair. You need the M/A 220v 3 phase output to power the air compressor. Dead or weak battery will also cause the one pair train to dump brake pipe as soon as the train gaps. Also, if the train stops in a gap, as you pointed out, you're also out of luck, unless you can release the brakes and roll back onto 3rd rail power. Therefore, the redundancy afforded by multiple pairs of cars is important. The LIRR used to run minimum 4 car MU consists. I know for a fact that we had two 4 car lines we used to run out of Babylon Yard in the wee hours of the morning when I was a coach cleaner in the early 80s. I believe the minimum is 6 cars now.

N340SG wrote:2 car MU set is out of the question on LIRR because if M/A goes down and/or D-4 air compressor, you're out of luck if they can't be reset. There is only one M/A and one air compressor per pair. You need the M/A 220v 3 phase output to power the air compressor. Dead or weak battery will also cause the one pair train to dump brake pipe as soon as the train gaps. Also, if the train stops in a gap, as you pointed out, you're also out of luck, unless you can release the brakes and roll back onto 3rd rail power. Therefore, the redundancy afforded by multiple pairs of cars is important. The LIRR used to run minimum 4 car MU consists. I know for a fact that we had two 4 car lines we used to run out of Babylon Yard in the wee hours of the morning when I was a coach cleaner in the early 80s. I believe the minimum is 6 cars now.

About two weeks ago, I was at Bellmore, and on Montauk #1 heading westbound was a 4 car M1/M3 train I guess deadheading somewhere, also this past friday I saw a 4 car M1/M3 move in to Johnson Ave. Yard. I haven't seen a 4 car revenue consist lately, but I've obviously seen 4 car non revenue moves. So the minimum may be 4 cars still, but I woulden't know.

Dutchrailnut: Dosen't MNR run 4 car M1/M3 trains often?

I personally have not seen a 4 car revenue train consist in years. We'll toss that question out to the transportation people. Does the LIRR run revenue 4 car M1/M3 consists in 2004?

Tom

P.S. Yard moves and shop moves are commonly made with one pair. There's a definite risk of crapping out. But, it's easier to rescue the pair if need be. You're in the middle of a yard full of cars you can grab to rescue the pair. And no transportation delays will (hopefully) be taken, so no one cares.
When I was a car mover at WSS, we had two successive one pair PI moves into the shop crap out on us when we went into the gap switching from 2 track to shop lead track. (Both pair had dead or weak batteries.) Damn!!
We got into the habit after that of giving a one pair move a quick "gap test" before shooting the gap.

The last I knew Metro-North ran four car trains of M-1's and M-3's but
then, Metro-North's maintenance is quite a bit better than the Long Island's
is.
Noel Weaver

"Because it's too *explitive deleted* slow as a diesel line, people hate changing trains, and the DM's don't work very well. "

Ok, so it's slow. I'm sure it's still faster than driving. Also, the DMs have been doing much better. If people hate switching trains so much, then they should just run more direct to NYP.


"A more logical approach would be to have a shuttle bus from Riverhead right to the mall. If enuff people used the shuttle then it might be worth the investment for a station. "

I think building the station right at Tanger is the better idea.


"Why not run WH as a two car NJT style 'dinky' run?"

That's what I was thinking.


"2 car MU set is out of the question on LIRR"

OK then. Run 4.

Noel,

You probably just unintentionally[?] picked another fight with weakcheeks.

Tom

There used to be a 4 car MU that used to run from Brook to WM, don't know if they still do that. 2 car sets are not used on the LIRR due to the possibility of gapping through an interlocking. Metro-North can get away with this, for example the scoot on the New Canaan is frequently 2 cars, because you can have continuous wire with the AC Catenary they use on the New Haven. WM scoots can sometimes need more than a pair, depending on what's going on in the City.

<i>Ok, so it's slow.</i>

It's beyond slow. It's uselessly slow.

<i>I'm sure it's still faster than driving.</i>

Actually? Off peak, it isn't. And I can go to Port Washington in 5 minutes and get a much faster train. If I were near mineola, ditto. Near Syosett, ditto.

It's simply to slow to attract riders, which, you'll notice, the OB line doesn't. It has the 2nd lowest ridership of the system (West hempstead is the lowest), but more than 2X as many stops as WH, thus it has a lower density of riders (i.e., fewer riders at each stop).

<i>Also, the DMs have been doing much better.</i>

Yeah, they're not melting to the ground monthly like they were. They're STILL only getting 1 - 2 DM runs a day per loco, and they're still quite unreliable. The low utilization means they're costing the LIRR a LOT of money to keep. And let's face it, the 710 prime mover is simply not designed for start stop operation - the LIRR's DMs are the only place where they're used for this.

<i> If people hate switching trains so much, then they should just run more direct to NYP. </i>

Apparently, the DMs for whatever reason aren't being used off peak for a reason, and I suspect it's they're too expensive to run.

I have heard a <b>rumor</b> that the LIRR's looking to drop the third rail gear on the DMs altogether now. It makes sense - it's a lot of maintenance for a feature that doesn't work very well and isn't used much anyway.

" And I can go to Port Washington in 5 minutes and get a much faster train."

There is no way you can get even from Greenvale to ANY Port Washington stop.


"It's simply to slow to attract riders, which, you'll notice, the OB line doesn't. It has the 2nd lowest ridership of the system (West hempstead is the lowest), "

That's such BS! First of all, from my own experiences on that line, it has far more riders than you make it out to be. Are the trains SRO? No. Is every seat taken? No. But it's got decent ridership. And even if those few times I've taken the line were just flukes, I know someone who lives on that line and takes it every day, and he says that while it's not crowded, it's not empty. And what ever happened to the Greenport line having the least amount of riders? Atleast make sense when you lie.


"I have heard a rumor that the LIRR's looking to drop the third rail gear on the DMs altogether now. It makes sense - it's a lot of maintenance for a feature that doesn't work very well and isn't used much anyway."

What the hell do you mean? They're working fine now(someone who actually knows what they're talking about for sure, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Actually, there has been a rumor that they intend to remove the third rail shoes from some DM's and have them run as straight diesels, but nothing else has come up of it, it's just rumors. It may not happen because it may cause serious problems with union issues. Actually though, the DM's have been performing just fine, maybe not as reliable as they should be, but enough to get by. In all honesty, the DE and DM fleet has had their fair share of problems. Every once in a while, one of them konks out and is down for the count for a few months or so. But if you look closely at their problems, you tend to have so many more problems with the M-1/3 fleet than the DE/ DMs, (granted the M-1's are ancient as opposed to being fairly new as the DE/ DMs are.) But remember, rumors are just that, rumors!

Comparing the M1/3 to the DE/DM????
The legacy car's are much more worthy than that comparison.

Nimby is apparently correct. Problems with the DE/DMs are down 40% they seem to be performing well these days. Maybe someday the PAs and intercom problems will be fixed. This whole rumor regarding removal of the contact shoes (if true) has nothing to do with reliabilty of the loco's. It is so the RR can get around the work rules of certain crafts.

I am of the opinion that this whole thing is a scare tactic to set up the next fair increase. Contary to popular beilief the OB Branch is busy, and the two busiest trains on that branch are both off peak. If the OB Branch is closed the already overcrowed PW branch would be overwhelmed. As far as driving to PW in 5 minutes. I don't think so and even if you could where are you going to park?

As we all know there is alot of money on the OB Branch, and money means political connections so I bet it will not be closed. But on the other hand it is the MTA's RR so they can do what they want.