Hoosier State derails outside Chicago 6/8

Obviously Mr. Fels and the Irish Chieftain live in a fantasy world where they believe somebody, i.e. the American taxpayer, should pick up the tab for any and all train service they would like to ride. And, if that service isn't provided then it's Congress' fault.

I can empathize with them. Afterall, we live in a time where we have a President who pisses away untold billions of dollars on a war based entirely on FALSE premises while he provides generous tax cuts to his millionaire benefactors, i.e. campaign contributors. If he can find $100 billion or so to get Saddam Hussein out of power, why can't we find a few billion a year to spend on developing the kind of rail service that people in most industrialized nations take for granted?

However, we live in the real world where every year we worry about whether Amtrak will have enough money to make it to the next year. Whether we like it or not, that's the environment we find ourselves in. As any architect will tell you, you have to adapt your plans to fit the environment.

That means making choices about how to allocate scarce resources. You can't do everything you want to do. You have to put your resources where they can do the most good, i.e. provide the greatest ROI.

The Hoosier State is, at best, a marginal operation for all the reasons cited above. Whether it should continue in operation is a decision better left to David Gunn and the people who work for him.

Can the train be marketed through "word of mouth," as Mr. Fels suggests? Perhaps, but neither he nor I are in a position to do so. We live in Texas and New York, respectively, and the train runs in Indiana.

Mr. Fels speaks of marketing the "experience" of train travel. But that experience is not always positive, and I doubt few people would find the "experience" of spending 5 or more hours in a Horizon coach with small windows and commuter car suspension traveling across mundane farmland to be very rewarding.

Consider also, that word of mouth is a two-edged sword. Most marketers know that when someone has a negative experience they are likely to tell five times as many people as when they have a positive experience.

There have been rail success stories like the California Corridors, the Cascades and the Downeaster. The common thread in all of these has been commitment from the sponsoring states to invest in improving the infrastructure and to aggressively market the services.

That does not exist in Indiana at this time. While we can debate how much support for rail should come at the federal level and how much from the states till the cows come home, there is no way we'll ever see anything done 100% at the federal level (I'm not talking about operating subsidies). If Washington calls the shots entirely, then rail becomes something shoved down the states throats whether they want it or not.

There's a big difference between how the Bush administration views the federal/state relationship regarding rail funding and how I do. The Bushies want to transfer the responsibility to the states, i.e. make Amtrak another unfunded mandate. I believe there should be a partnership to fund project in those states demonstrating an interest in rail, with funds allocated based on which projects deliver the greatest bang for the buck. If Uncle Sam agrees to fund rail projects on the same basis as highway projects, i.e. 80/20, interest from the states will probably be quite strong.

To sum up, in the real world you have to make choices about how to allocate scarce resources. That's what running a business is all about. You can have good rail service, but only where there are people who want it and they are willing to make a commitment to support it. Hoosiers control the destiny of the "Hoosier State."

To sum up, in the real world you have to make choices about how to allocate scarce resources. That's what running a business is all about

Now stop right there. What is Amtrak, a business or a service? Consider what would happen to, for example, the Long Island Railroad if the MTA suddenly forced it to "run like a business". How about visiting Hudson County in New Jersey and riding one of those "dollar vans" that are currently allowed to compete with the buses. Is that the free market model we are seeking?

David Gunn already said that it is impossible to follow the "business" (i.e. make profit) model with Amtrak. What are you claiming him to be lying about? Or are we trying to resurrect the fallacies of the Amtrak Reform Council yet again.

And "scarce resources"?? Nothing scarce about what's going into the highway and airport trust funds—the only thing that's scarce is what is being allocated to Amtrak. Do you really want the hypocrisy and double-standards to be perpetuated?

LI Loco, once again having left the rails, wrote:Hoosiers control the destiny of the "Hoosier State."

The way Empire Staters control the destiny of Empire Service?

And I don't know why this still isn't clear. Denial, strongest force in the webiverse . . .

LI Loco wrote:Can the train be marketed through "word of mouth," as Mr. Fels suggests? Perhaps, but neither he nor I are in a position to do so.

This is a public forum. On, like, the Internet. It goes everywhere. And words have meaning. During the Second World War, people in Colorado were cautioned that loose lips sink ships.

My honeymoon period with Mr. Gunn is over. The Hoosier State, and every other train like it, needs a cafe car. To Mr. Gunn, I say, please solve the problem.

Regarding making fun of kids falling off bikes, spare me the emo, please. Amtrak is not a child learning to ride a bike. The Hoosier State needs a cafe car.

RMadisonWI wrote:

Rhinecliff wrote:The Irish Chieftan raises a valid question: What am I doing about it?

The answer, of course, is basically nothing. I ride Amtrak regularly, but because I do not live in (or travel to) Indiana, I have no reason to take up the cause of Amtrak's lousy Hoosier State service. In my opinion, that is for the people of Indiana. Being a New Yorker (unfortunately State, not City), however, I have no reservations about expressing my opinions on the patheticness of the Hoosier State service.

So, in other words, you'll make fun of the poor kid across the street that just fell off his bike, but you won't go over and help him up?

(Oops, I was supposed to stay out of this thread)

Mr. Madison, there's a big difference between a child who needs help and a state deciding its own transportation priorities. Who are we to tell Indiana its business? That strikes of paternalism, and, having spent two summers in Indiana as a teen, one thing I learned is that Hoosiers resent outsiders telling them what to do.

The questions that have been raised about the Hoosier State have to do with whether this train is viable, given its lengthy schedule, lack of amenities and undesriable calling times in Indianapolis. Unfortunately, some people on this board seem to think that every time someone takes issue with what Amtrak is doing they are "bashing" Amtrak, as if being a railfan or train advocate means you have to take some kind of loyalty oath.

It annoys me that the central issue here has become this loyalty debate. It strikes me as fascist behavior, and I resent it. I'm happy to discuss the merits of any issue relating to Amtrak where I feel my knowledge and opinions can be of value. But NOBODY has the right to say I'm not a "true" fan because they don't like my views. That's arrogant and disrespectful and it is regrettable that our moderator doesn't have the integrity to put a stop to it.

mattfels wrote:

LI Loco, once again having left the rails, wrote:Hoosiers control the destiny of the "Hoosier State."

The way Empire Staters control the destiny of Empire Service?

Precisely. By voting with our feet. The Empire Corridor carries over 1 million passengers a year, not counting Lake Shore Limited ridership. For travel between Albany and New York City, rail has become the MODE of Choice. And, our state government has made tens of millions of dollars in capital improvements.

LI Loco wrote:
Can the train be marketed through "word of mouth," as Mr. Fels suggests? Perhaps, but neither he nor I are in a position to do so.

This is a public forum.

Will the Hoosiers present on the public forum please say "aye," and give yourself an extra vote if you're not a railfan and you live on the Indianapolis-Chicago corridor.

My honeymoon period with Mr. Gunn is over

Meaning just what? Mr. Gunn can no more secure additional funds for Amtrak than, for example, George Warrington can secure more funds for NJ Transit. It doesn't work that way. How about your honeymoon period with the current administration and Congress in Washington?

there's a big difference between a child who needs help and a state deciding its own transportation priorities

Onus on the states again. The Bush Administration is just loving this, I'm sure. Washington gets off scott-free again and fails to live up to its responsibilities in this area. Shift the blame to Gunn, as though he had unlimited funds to play with and didn't provide the best train possible.

The questions that have been raised about the Hoosier State have to do with whether this train is viable, given its lengthy schedule, lack of amenities and undesriable calling times in Indianapolis

Repeating this yet again? The answer is still no, but the next question of "what are we going to do about it" should still not be ignored, otherwise nothing will get done about it. Quid pro quo.

Amtrak is not a child learning to ride a bike

The remark doesn't appear to be about Amtrak but the Hoosier State. Perhaps a better analogy would be a temporarily paralyzed person falling out of a wheelchair? What to do next, help him back in or let him founder?

And what's with the "fascist" comments? Nobody here believes the state is more important than the individual; and to be quite blunt, insisting that people should be more active in advocating better long-distance passenger rail service is not tantamount to fascism, at least on my part. (If you really want to get into it, fascists were quite anti-rail; consider Hitler and his Autobahnen.)

When I say that my honeymoon period with Mr. Gunn is over, I mean that I want to start seeing some results. To be sure, Mr. Gunn has been forced to overcome serious problems created by past administrations and Congressional mismanagment. Nevertheless, Mr. Gunn has been given $1 billion + to run his railroad, and for that, I think the passengers onboard the Hoosier State should be able to purchase a cup of coffee.

With the current administration, I have never even experienced a honeymoon. Needless to say, I will not be voting for our current President.

As far as the analogy to paralized persons falling out of wheel chairs is concerned, I say you're getting warmer, but still, please, spare me the emo. Amtrak cannot be analogized to a child falling off a bick nor a paralized person falling out of a wheel chair. If Amtrak wanted to provide cafe service onboard the Hoosier State, I say it could. Again, call me crazy, but I think it could.

Irish Chieftain wrote:

To sum up, in the real world you have to make choices about how to allocate scarce resources. That's what running a business is all about

Now stop right there. What is Amtrak, a business or a service?

Amtrak is a business in the sense that any government agency or not-for-profit institution, e.g. hospital, church, university, is a business. It may not have show a profit but it does have to cover its operating expenses.

In Amtrak's case, those expenses are covered through a combination of revenues and government subsidies. Since it is subsidized by U.S. taxpayers, its directors and officers have a duty to be prudent stewards of the public largesse. In its oversight role, Congress is charged with assessing how well Amtrak meets that duty.

Consider what would happen to, for example, the Long Island Railroad if the MTA suddenly forced it to "run like a business".

It would be the best thing to ever happen to the Long Island Rail Road. We would eliminate waste, fraud and corruption. We'd no longer have boondoggles like the Hillside Maintenance Complex, the FL-9 rebuilds or the disastrous design of the M-7s. The extra service to the US Open would be something to be proud of instead of an embarrassment. Most of all, we would get it out of the grasp of the grubby politicians and unions who have been screwing it since the day the Pennsylvania Railroad cashed its check.

P.S. Funding levels for highways and airports are IRRELEVANT to a discuss of whether Amtrak should be managed like a business.

Rhinecliff wrote:Nevertheless, Mr. Gunn has been given $1 billion + to run his railroad

And that's enough? Gunn said recently that he needs $1.8 billion, so he already told the world that he isn't getting enough. Not to mention that thanks to the stipulations of past loans, expansion is not even permitted, so even if he wanted to have more daily trains between Chicago and Indianapolis, he's not allowed to do it of his own volition (assuming that he did have the money).

As far as the analogy to paralized persons falling out of wheel chairs is concerned, I say you're getting warmer, but still, please, spare me the emo. Amtrak cannot be analogized to a child falling off a bick nor a paralized person falling out of a wheel chair

The comparisons are utterly dispassionate (that means "non-emo"). And you missed the point yet again; as already mentioned, it's not the whole of Amtrak being compared, just the Hoosier State.

If Amtrak wanted to provide cafe service onboard the Hoosier State, I say it could. Again, call me crazy, but I think it could

I won't hurl epithets at you, but as things stand, unless Gunn gets his $1.8 billion at the very least, don't count on it. What if more pressing matters come along, such as a cave-in on one of the North River Tunnels...?

Can't believe liloco wrote:

Consider what would happen to, for example, the Long Island Railroad if the MTA suddenly forced it to "run like a business"

It would be the best thing to ever happen to the Long Island Rail Road. We would eliminate waste, fraud and corruption

You'd also eliminate trains. Why isn't the LIRR currently private? No MTA, no LIRR. Sorry, but that's the truth. You have demonstrated that you don't know what you're talking about.

We'd no longer have boondoggles like the Hillside Maintenance Complex, the FL-9 rebuilds or the disastrous design of the M-7s. The extra service to the US Open would be something to be proud of instead of an embarrassment

No other country does it the way you claim it can be done! Sorry, but this is such an outrage. Also, it looks to me like the M7s are running without too many hitches?

Most of all, we would get it out of the grasp of the grubby politicians and unions who have been screwing it since the day the Pennsylvania Railroad cashed its check

OK, you have demonstrated a bias that will blind you to the truth. Politicians and unions versus "free-market" corporate bosses? If that were who were running the LIRR since the PRR's demise, then you'd be lucky if MP54s were still running into NYP. Not only that, the LIRR would have no high platforms, the Babylon Branch would never have been elevated, there would be no passenger service west of Babylon and Hicksville either—not enough "business" coming from there. Face it pal, you hate trains.

P.S. Funding levels for highways and airports are IRRELEVANT to a discuss of whether Amtrak should be managed like a business

Utterly wrong! If the other transportation infrastructures are receiving public monies for their upkeep, then not giving such support to (dare I say all) railroad infrastructure is hypocritical, and foments unfair competition, which is supposed to be illegal. Such a double-standard makes a sham of the government of this country, and any claims that the USA has a "free market economy" are consequently also a sham.

Obviously, Mr. Chief, you don't get the difference between a not-for-profit agency that is run "like a business," meaning it operates in an efficient manner, and a business that is formed to generate profit. Therefore, it's a waste of time to discuss these issues with you. It's late and I have to go to bed. In the morning I have to drive to a golf tournament in the Hamptons.

P.S. I love trains. I'd love them more if they ran on time, however.

P.P.S. The LIRR was elevated at Babylon (and Hicksville) when it was still owned by the Pennsy.

Obviously, Mr. Chief, you don't get the difference between a not-for-profit agency that is run "like a business," meaning it operates in an efficient manner

Now it's incumbent upon you to be specific as to the inefficiencies, now that you claim they exist. At an average subsidy of about a billion a year, I can't see any—it looks like to me that everything's cut to the bone and is as "efficient" as humanly possible. Point out the waste, please?

PS. The Babylon Branch was elevated under the MTA, who took over the LIRR in 1965.

The only "loyalty" I insist on is to the facts. Here are some: Both LI Loco and Rhinecliff have been caught making stuff up to "prove" a point that isn't worth proving. And yeah, they're really angry . . . that they got caught. But whose fault is that?

No cafe? Fair enough. But three days a week, there's a train that has one. The Hoosier State doesn't exist in a vacuum. It runs only 4 days a week. Calling the train "worthless," as Rhinecliff does, is just--oh, what's the word?--"emo." Reflective of a mean-spirited personal agenda, perhaps, but not the facts.

If you are dis-satisfied with present Amtrak service, the ones to write to
are your state and federal representatives. Indiana has shown little or no
initiative to support any Amtrak service in that state so you have a sad
state of affairs, lack of a decent route for time, lack of service because
they do not see the need and lack of equipment because again they do
not see the need. Meantime, other places are passing them by.
Most civilized countries see a need for a decent, modern passenger train
service and spend accordingly. The leadership of the United States in my
opinion has basically failed in this catagory.
Money should be spent on fixing up corridors and providing enough decent
equipment for adequate services, this on a federal level and then on the
state level, support funds for the operation of needed services.
California, the Pacific northwest, Illinois, Michigan, North Carolina and a
number of northeastern states have helped by fixing up roadbeds, in some
cases buying equipment, providing operating subsidies and in some places
building new stations.
There are locations all over the northeast where the states or locals have
built or provided new stations for Amtrak to occupy and use, most of
them are a big improvement over what existed previously.
The whole country needs service similar to what California has provided,
whether this will ever happen or not still remains to be seen.
There are, of course, some states that will not support any service and
anything in those states exists only through the good of a neighboring
state for the most cases, such as: New Hampshire, Ohio, Indiana,
most of the southeast south of North Carolina.
As for food on the Hoosier State, fiddlesticks, if people in Indiana want
more than what they got, let them get on their computer/typewriter or pen
and paper and write, write, write. What's more important, coffee on a one
car train or track/wire maintenance on the NEC, or keeping Union Station
in Chicago in good repair or keeping the national network in operation.
David Gunn is probably the best leader that Amtrak has ever had and
maybe ever will have.
Noel Weaver

RE:

Both LI Loco and Rhinecliff have been caught making stuff up to "prove" a point that isn't worth proving. And yeah, they're really angry . . . that they got caught. But whose fault is that?

I have neither made anything up, nor am I angry. Mr. Fels would do well to learn the difference between a mistatement of fact, and a misstatement of opinion.

When Mr. Fels questioned my opinion that the Hoosier State was worthless, I quickly acknowledged his point and moved on. Not emo; hardly mean spirited. Just the wrong choice of words. Pathetic would have been a better choice.

The service stinks, Mr. Fels, I am sorry about that, but it stinks.