History of the Broad Street Line

Is there some reason the Spur doesn't run on Sundays?

Ken S. wrote:Is there some reason the Spur doesn't run on Sundays?

Lack of ridership.

NortheastTrainMan wrote:Hey guys it's been awhile . Not trying to play ressurector here so calm down before you start saying that I restarted a dead thread.

But here's a few questions

#1 Today 10/29/2010 around 3:10-3:15 PM as I was waiting for a train at Ellsworth Federal I heard the Wabco AA-2 horn and I looked to see what it was, since the BSL trains typically don't sound their horns in that location. I looked and on the southbound track a train with blue lights on and no interior lights on flew by the station, I'm assuming it was deadheading to Pattison. Was there a sports game today or something? Also I've seen northbound deadheads, but never a southbound deadhead so it was interesting.

#2 Why don't express trains run on weekends? Is it too costly to do so, or is it due to lack of ridership?

#3 When there are games in South Philly how many trains are at Pattison typically? Like are there trains stopped closely together , as in more than one train on each track? Or are there only two trains in the station? Also when there are local and sports express trains that depart northbound from Pattison, do the expresses typically leave first? And if not do the expresses overtake the locals south of Walnut-Locust or north of Walnut-Locust?

If someone could answer my questions I would greatly appreciate it.

I can do two out of three for you:

1) That was either a Positioning move or a training run (I'm putting money on the latter).

3) AT&T Station (formerly known as Pattison Avenue) has four tracks spread on two levels; each track is 1000 feet long, more than enough to hold 2 six car trains each. Normally the lower level isn't used so the standard is two extras on one side while the regular locals are on the other. Any other extra runs will unload and then deadhead back to Girard to come back down and lay over at Walnut-Locust on 2 Track. That is normal for a Sunday Eagles game since six trains is used; for the Phillies its four. As for departures, coming south every effort is made to time them so that the Express leaves first or if a local is down on the South Broad, its at least past Snyder Ave so that express won't be "Riding the Yellows" all the way down. Northbound after events a supervisor is on the platform with extra operators so after those laid over trains leave and the Walnut Locust extras make it down, the SB operator can pull up and dump while the NB operator will reach in and open the doors (only one door control can be enabled per side), get into the cab, charge the brakes and do a quick pretrip before getting the ok to proceed. The supervisor has the authority to both release trains and to have them run express or local. The train dispatcher regains control once the train leaves the platform.

For weekday (particular the Businessperson's Specials) Phillies Games one or two extras are sent along with any regular express tripper.

Thanks redarrow5591, that was some interesting and pretty cool information there.
As for #1 I have some questions for your explanation.

If it were a training run why would it be a deadhead? Wouldn't it make more sense for it to be a local or express revenue train? Just a thought, I know you're leaning towards the latter of your explanation but still.

Also for it being a positioning move, what would the train be positioned for? A southbound local came about 8-10 minutes after the deadhead came through, and two northbound passed by the time the southbound train came. I mean there seemed to be sufficient regularly scheduled BSL trains as it was. I heard of there being a 76ers game but I don't know of any sports game starting around 3:00 PM, that's just too early. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. I'm just saying it's weird for that to happen. Either way who knows?

But I appreciate your insight I never knew supervisors would be on the platform directing trains, I thought it was all done by dispatch. See I learn something new everyday.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

Ken S. wrote:Is there some reason the Spur doesn't run on Sundays?

Lack of ridership.

Is there more demand for Ridge Service on Saturday then on Sunday?

Also today at Spring Garden there was construction on the local tracks (1&4) so the locals were running on the express tracks (2&3). I'm assuming they ran on the inner tracks via the crossover before Girard to the crossover shortly after Walnut-Locust (vice versa for northbound trains). With that taking place I'm assuming that all non Ridge Spur trains bypassed Fairmount, unless there were platform extensions at Fairmount which is something I highly doubt . Also the trains were running with the white lights on, wouldn't the blue lights have been more appropriate? Like they could've been turned on at Cecil B Moore and kept blue until it reached it's terminus, for the return trip kept blue until Girard?

Maybe dispatch controlled the tracks, but still it's just a thought.

NortheastTrainMan wrote: Also the trains were running with the white lights on, wouldn't the blue lights have been more appropriate? Like they could've been turned on at Cecil B Moore and kept blue until it reached it's terminus, for the return trip kept blue until Girard?

That would have risked confusing riders who'd see the light and think the train would only be making the express stops north of Girard.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

NortheastTrainMan wrote: Also the trains were running with the white lights on, wouldn't the blue lights have been more appropriate? Like they could've been turned on at Cecil B Moore and kept blue until it reached it's terminus, for the return trip kept blue until Girard?

That would have risked confusing riders who'd see the light and think the train would only be making the express stops north of Girard.

Good point

redarrow5591 wrote:

NortheastTrainMan wrote:Hey guys it's been awhile . Not trying to play ressurector here so calm down before you start saying that I restarted a dead thread.

But here's a few questions

#1 Today 10/29/2010 around 3:10-3:15 PM as I was waiting for a train at Ellsworth Federal I heard the Wabco AA-2 horn and I looked to see what it was, since the BSL trains typically don't sound their horns in that location. I looked and on the southbound track a train with blue lights on and no interior lights on flew by the station, I'm assuming it was deadheading to Pattison. Was there a sports game today or something? Also I've seen northbound deadheads, but never a southbound deadhead so it was interesting.

#2 Why don't express trains run on weekends? Is it too costly to do so, or is it due to lack of ridership?

#3 When there are games in South Philly how many trains are at Pattison typically? Like are there trains stopped closely together , as in more than one train on each track? Or are there only two trains in the station? Also when there are local and sports express trains that depart northbound from Pattison, do the expresses typically leave first? And if not do the expresses overtake the locals south of Walnut-Locust or north of Walnut-Locust?

If someone could answer my questions I would greatly appreciate it.

I can do two out of three for you:



3) AT&T Station (formerly known as Pattison Avenue) has four tracks spread on two levels; each track is 1000 feet long, more than enough to hold 2 six car trains each. Normally the lower level isn't used so the standard is two extras on one side while the regular locals are on the other. Any other extra runs will unload and then deadhead back to Girard to come back down and lay over at Walnut-Locust on 2 Track. That is normal for a Sunday Eagles game since six trains is used; for the Phillies its four. As for departures, coming south every effort is made to time them so that the Express leaves first or if a local is down on the South Broad, its at least past Snyder Ave so that express won't be "Riding the Yellows" all the way down. Northbound after events a supervisor is on the platform with extra operators so after those laid over trains leave and the Walnut Locust extras make it down, the SB operator can pull up and dump while the NB operator will reach in and open the doors (only one door control can be enabled per side), get into the cab, charge the brakes and do a quick pretrip before getting the ok to proceed. The supervisor has the authority to both release trains and to have them run express or local. The train dispatcher regains control once the train leaves the platform.

For weekday (particular the Businessperson's Specials) Phillies Games one or two extras are sent along with any regular express tripper.

Can I add to number three?

On the pre festivities of the 4th of the july this summer things were operated differently. Instead of Having extra trains at Pattison and Walnut locust, 5 car trains were kept at the signals of Walnut Locust, City Hall, and Race Vine.

Ken S. wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

Ken S. wrote:Is there some reason the Spur doesn't run on Sundays?

Lack of ridership.

Is there more demand for Ridge Service on Saturday then on Sunday?

Yes, but I suspect that the Saturday ridership is relatively small, I'm sure DVARP could tell you how to find out the numbers if you're interested.

Let's segue into a discussion of what might happen in the future, courtesy of Tom Corbett. The policies of "Governor No Tax Increase" might well result in service reductions.

How would - and should - this impact the BSL?

Some context: The MFSE carries apprioximately 180,000 weekday passengers on two tracks. The London Underground Central Line carries approximateky 750,000 weekday passengers on two tracks.

The BSL is carrying approximately 100,000 on four track for part of the route length. I would submit that the express service should be configured around the periods of greatest demand.

Consider the following service patterns:

Monday - Friday 6AM-9AM & 4PM-7PM

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T
Express: Fern Rock / Olney - Walnut+Locust
Ridge: Express Fern Rock / Olney - 8th & Market

Monday - Friday outside of 6AM-9AM & 4PM-7PM

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T
Ridge: Express Fern Rock / Olney - 8th & Market

Saturday & Sunday

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T

Bill R. wrote: Yes, but I suspect that the Saturday ridership is relatively small, I'm sure DVARP could tell you how to find out the numbers if you're interested.

Let's segue into a discussion of what might happen in the future, courtesy of Tom Corbett. The policies of "Governor No Tax Increase" might well result in service reductions.

How would - and should - this impact the BSL?

Some context: The MFSE carries apprioximately 180,000 weekday passengers on two tracks. The London Underground Central Line carries approximateky 750,000 weekday passengers on two tracks.

The BSL is carrying approximately 100,000 on four track for part of the route length. I would submit that the express service should be configured around the periods of greatest demand.

Consider the following service patterns:

Monday - Friday 6AM-9AM & 4PM-7PM

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T
Express: Fern Rock / Olney - Walnut+Locust
Ridge: Express Fern Rock / Olney - 8th & Market

Monday - Friday outside of 6AM-9AM & 4PM-7PM

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T
Ridge: Express Fern Rock / Olney - 8th & Market

Saturday & Sunday

Local: Fern Rock - AT&T

That looks like the pre-1991 service patterns before the Railworks project help install 2 and 3 tracks between Erie and Olney; the Ridge Spurs ran as a shuttle between Girard and 8th-Market.

Also in regards to those ridership numbers that while the Broad Street has one major surface terminal (Olney) and several other transfer points, the Market-Frankford has TWO (THE 69th Street Terminal and Bridge-Pratt). That right there would signifigantly bloat ridership numbers; SEPTA and the City (which still owns the Broad Street Subway and the Frankford Elevated) knows this and accepts this.

redarrow did you mean to say Fern Rock? Because Olney is underground.

NortheastTrainMan wrote:redarrow did you mean to say Fern Rock? Because Olney is underground.

He was referring to the above-ground portion of "Olney Terminal" which is served by a multitude of bus routes.

Yesterday 12-11-2010 around 12:30 PM I noticed multiple empty BSS train sets sitting on the northbound express track between Spring Garden and Walnut-Locust, and towards the beginning of the northbound express track north of Lombard-South. Also all trains in general seemed to be sounding their horns more often. Why was that? The sets all seemed to be positioned either before a signal or in a way that the lead car was slightly ahead of the signal.

It just seemed odd to see so many empty BSS train sets just sitting empty on express tracks, especially since they were mostly in between stations. Almost as if they were positioned there for some purpose, I'm sure there was a purpose but I don't know what the purpose was. If someone could explain to me why that occurred I would appreciate it.

That may have had something to do with the Army/Navy game? Always a big crowd at the sports complex for that.