High Speed Amtrak

I think one of the problems is the FRA. The standards imposed on high speed transport, and basically all transport in the United States are so much higher in Europe to the point that it's basically impossible to do anything without at least 50 billion dollars.

-Phil

geoking66 wrote:I think one of the problems is the FRA. The standards imposed on high speed transport, and basically all transport in the United States are so much higher in Europe to the point that it's basically impossible to do anything without at least 50 billion dollars.

-Phil

That is true. Say, on the dedicated LGV lines, how safe are the TGVs?

railfanofewu wrote:

geoking66 wrote:I think one of the problems is the FRA. The standards imposed on high speed transport, and basically all transport in the United States are so much higher in Europe to the point that it's basically impossible to do anything without at least 50 billion dollars.

-Phil

That is true. Say, on the dedicated LGV lines, how safe are the TGVs?

On LGV (not classic) lines, there have been no fatalities, even though there have been accidents such as derailments, but noöne died, and the train did not flip over. Although on LGV lines there have been no deaths, classic lines have seen fatal accidents.

-Phil

geoking66 wrote:I think one of the problems is the FRA. The standards imposed on high speed transport, and basically all transport in the United States are so much higher in Europe to the point that it's basically impossible to do anything without at least 50 billion dollars.

-Phil

Sounds backwards, IMHO.
The FRA here has imposed such high standards that to do anything with HSR in the USA takes big bucks.

Keotaman

railfanofewu wrote:

geoking66 wrote:I think one of the problems is the FRA. The standards imposed on high speed transport, and basically all transport in the United States are so much higher (?than) in Europe to the point that it's basically impossible to do anything without at least 50 billion dollars.

-Phil

That is true. Say, on the dedicated LGV lines, how safe are the TGVs?

A few years ago a TGV train on LGV Nord came off the tracks. No-one was killed, the train did not break up.

The cause was unmapped trenches from the first world war had undermined the tracks.

TGVs traveling on the regular network, at regular speeds have been involved in a number of grade crossing accidents. Most spectacular so far was a special load truck, I believe about 50 tons. 1 death. This was at about 80mph. A few years ago, one of those 'safe' FRA regulated trains hit a truck at the same speed and 14 people were killed....

I seriously believe that the Pacific Surfliner and Capitol Corridor in California are worth elecritification, even high speed rail between San Diego and Los Angeles (there is enough space between the platforms of most stations for bypass tracks.

-Phil

I think that HSR on the West Coast at least from SAN-SFO via LAX would greatly relieve congestion on the I-5 I believe,(sorry not form the area) and decrease drivers. Also if you really wan't to be eco-friendly, you can put solar generators in the deserts along the lines making the line completely self sufficent. Also as previously stated, an East Coast-Chicago/St. Louis line with perhaps wind or other renewable energy to make the eco's happy.

Patrick A. wrote:I think that HSR on the West Coast at least from SAN-SFO via LAX would greatly relieve congestion on the I-5 I believe,(sorry not form the area) and decrease drivers.

I-5 in this area really goes through the middle of nowhere.

Most local traffic is handled on U.S. 101 (along the coast) or CA 99 (the old U.S. 99 alignment), both of which are freeways (except 99 in some cities becomes a local street).

I-5 is mostly a truck route, and doesn't directly pass through or near any cities. However, the stretch of I-5 north of Los Angeles through the Grapevine to the I-5/99 split is definitely busy, but also climbs a hill that would be difficult for anything (think Tehachapi for the railroads - there's a reason the railroad detours that far east, and that both the SP and the ATSF (now the UP and BNSF) share that strech of rail; and that passenger trains DON'T use that line currently.)

If anything, HSR would do more to relieve the endless strings of MD-80s and 737s between SoCal and the Bay Area; which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Good point, wigwagfan. I think that the Cascades is probably a train that would relieve congestion on Interstate 5, considering that it does go near it, if I'm correct.

-Phil

Talgo is now offering the XXI 7th series as a fully FRA compatible product. Now I am sure there are many other things that the government can throw in the way of high speed trains, but it would seem to me, as this is a diesel train, that there should be some way to put it into service. Even if it is by a state consortium, and not Amtrak.

Personally, I think that focusing on a few shorter routes that are more congestion relievers even if they are not true high-speed lines, will get the ball started in building a high-speed network. After all, while 110 is hardly high speed, it is faster than what we have now. Besides, no passenger sits down and figures out which mode has the fastest time and tehn takes that - they base it on how it feels to ride it - does it feel fast, is it comfortable, is it efficient, and is it cost-effective for them.

The Talgo XX1 is never produced as Export, and even in Spain has run into problems.
They run as electric trains now and despite that TALGO has plans, unless they built a demo to show and tell it will never be sold in the USA.
The TALGO USA page is also about 3 years old with no updates I believe.

What kind of problems, exactly? I mean, I know there are problems with the gauge-changing axels. Keep in mind that there are differences between the Spanish version and the one they are offering over here.

I don't think a demo is a good guarantee of success. Didn't work for the Flexliner, didn't work well for Colorado Railcar. Certainly not for the ICE or X2000. Isn't the Acela a non-prototype design, and wasn't the DMU South Carolina was going to order a demo-less design?

Unfortunately, if nothing is ever going to be good enough then you will never get anywhere at all. These would be a far cry better than what we have now, which is, quite frankly, failing. While in my heart I love the idea of Amtrak, the way it is organized now and how the government is manipulating it, it will never get anywhere. So it is up to someone else to do something different.

Unfortunately, if nothing is ever going to be good enough then you will never get anywhere at all. These would be a far cry better than what we have now, which is, quite frankly, failing.

Well said. I feel like if we could just get some more consistent 100 mph+ service, rail might become more appealing. Lines that connect big hubs would have to run faster if people wanted to be impressed by the convenience, but for shorter routes (where people would more likely drive half the day than take an airplane), a faster-than-car train could be attractive.

DutchRailnut wrote:The Talgo XX1 is never produced as Export, and even in Spain has run into problems.

Talgo was extremely ambitious to try and get their foot into the U.S. market, after winning the bid for the Cascades trainsets. Sales offices were created, new FRA compliant products were announced, and Talgo even purchased the former Northern Pacific locomotive shops in Livingston, Montana (later the Montana Raillink shops, still later the Livingston Rebuild Center.)

Unfortunately, there were no other takers. VIA Rail Canada found a bunch of cars cheap in Europe, and free from the United States' FRA's mandates was able to import them and use them in Canada. California settled for bi-level cars, looking for more capacity. Amtrak had plenty of Amfleet and Horizon equipment, which satisified the mid-west and northeast corridor services. The California, Texas and Florida high-speed rail initiatives largely went nowhere.

It didn't help that the FRA decided that the Talgo trainset was not compliant with its regulations (even as they were just entering service), but fortunately for the State of Washington, a waiver was issued as long as cab cars were employed to protect the opposite end of the train.

Talgo has finally all but given up in the United States. Livingston Rebuild Center was sold back to the parent company of Montana Raillink, who plans to redevelop much of the property. Much of the sales force and several offices were closed. None of the FRA-compliant products ever saw the light of day. All that is left is a small staff in Seattle, and the maintenance facilities to maintain the only Talgo equipment in the U.S.

Interestingly, the www.talgousa.com and www.talgoamerica.com URLs still work, but once you click on the "products" link, they will refer you to the international/corporate site of www.talgo.com.