Federal, Night Owl, Twilight Shoreliner (Trains 65, 66, 67)

Howdy everyone,

Recently did an overnight on 66, Philadelphia to Boston. Great trip, got lots of sleep, train was early (schedule seems to be padded a lot, but oh well).

In Philadelphia, consist seemed standard for this Regional; ACS, baggage, and some Amfleets. However, when I woke up and stretched my legs in Providence, I saw that 2 P42s showed up (I’d guess in New Haven maybe) and were leading the train! Furthermore, the pantograph on the electric motor was down. Is this normal? I’ve never seen P42s run Regionals before, especially considering they can’t go over 110.

Also, has Amtrak ever considered/experimented putting a sleeper on the overnight Regional? Seems to me that it’d get some takers. There was a decent amount of through passengers.

Thanks!

There used to be a sleeper on this train. There is speculation that one will come back, eventually.

HammerJack wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:59 am However, when I woke up and stretched my legs in Providence, I saw that 2 P42s showed up (I’d guess in New Haven maybe) and were leading the train! Furthermore, the pantograph on the electric motor was down. Is this normal?

It's not uncommon. Amtrak likes to perform catenary maintenance in the middle of the night when nothing else is running, which leads to the overnight trains running behind diesels.

It seems that this practice is only done north of New Haven - catenary shut down and overnight maintenance done. That’s the newer catenary put into service in 2000 largely with the roll out of the Acela Express. Almost systematic and preventative. I’ve never heard or seen this done for the southern end, but of course the southern end has much more expansive commuter service on it. Too bad though that Metro North couldn’t shut down so as to hasten along the re-building of the old New Haven catenary, trackage, and bridges from New Rochelle to New Haven. Been working on this bottleneck for YEARS!

There’s no reason why Amtrak could not restore the sleeper on this overnight NEC train. Predecessor trains - Federal, Twilight Shoreliner, Night Owl, etc. operated from beginning of sleeper car existence to roughly 2003 or so when they were removed to cover for other Viewliner Sleepers one cold winter. With money tight Warrington didn’t keep up the maintenance of the Viewliners and with the cold winter descending that year, all but nearly 20 Viewliners suffered from frozen pipes and cold weather damage. In simple terms the protection on the water pipes to prevent freeze ups had not been maintained adequately. Took nearly six months to get the Viewliner fleet restored. Many eastern single level overnight LD trains lost their sleepers, or had them severely curtailed.

The Twilight Shoreliner (Train 65/66/67), as it was then called, was one of the first trains that had to give up its sleeper. It was resurrected with a sleeper for a brief period of time after the “deep freeze” mess, but then Gunn got convinced that the Viewliner fleet needed to have about 25% held in reserve for maintenance and other issues these cars were going through. So the Viewliners were again take off this NEC train and thus has led to nearly a 15 years hiatus of regularly scheduled overnight sleeper car service on the NEC. In general, Gunn despised the Viewliners and often said how he preferred the single level Heritage sleepers over the “Viewliner junk.” He was correct that the Viewliners were not aging well, even a early as 2005 when they were not even 10 years old. He did implement a refurbishment plan for them. This likely played into the 25% “reserve” factor.

But of the 39 Viewliners required for regular service and no major Viewliner refurbishment program going on (just a refresh of some bedding supplies), I don’t see why Amtrak couldn’t deploy just TWO Viewliners to operate and offer an upgraded overnight experience on the NEC once again between Washington DC and Boston. When I last took the train, you got your food And drink from the cafe/lounge car or a “breakfast box” was delivered to the room. One boarded the train after 9 pm, and was off the train in early morning hours, so a light breakfast of some sort was really all that was needed. The roomette charge was nearly as much as what it cost to go from NYP to Chicago (if travelling from say Washington DC to Boston). It wasn’t cheap. And patronage was always good when I was aboard. Amtrak and some folks often said patronage was light. I took it MANY times from DC to Boston as an option (as opposed to a First Class ticket on the first Acela Express that departed at 5 am from Washington DC). Perfect hotel on wheels, and it couldn’t have been any more expensive for Amtrak than Acela Express first class. In matter of fact, Acela Express has two LSA’s where as the Viewliner Sleeper only had one attendant. Moreover, deploying two sleepers for the NEC would keep the sleepers “close” to NYP in case there was an issue and they needed to swap the sleeper out or send it to Florida. Amtrak would then require a whopping 41 cars out of 50, still leaving 9 in reserve. Amtrak does though have one Viewliner in “storage” from one of the wrecks down south last year. It’s repairable, so not sure what the story is.

AMtrak could do it IF it wanted to......

With the delivery of the new Viewliner II sleepers, Amtrak is supposed to restore sleeper service to the NEC. All remains to be seen though!

HammerJack wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:59 am Howdy everyone,

Recently did an overnight on 66, Philadelphia to Boston. Great trip, got lots of sleep, train was early (schedule seems to be padded a lot, but oh well).

In Philadelphia, consist seemed standard for this Regional; ACS, baggage, and some Amfleets. However, when I woke up and stretched my legs in Providence, I saw that 2 P42s showed up (I’d guess in New Haven maybe) and were leading the train! Furthermore, the pantograph on the electric motor was down. Is this normal? I’ve never seen P42s run Regionals before, especially considering they can’t go over 110.
Thanks!

Along with providing power for when the cat is de energized for work, this train is often used to shuffle diesels between NHV and BOS. The schedule is heavily padded in both directions so usually the train always arrives several stops early along the route. I personally don’t do track speed when I work this train because you will sit at most stations for 5-8 mins.

This train basically has a diesel schedule so that it can be pulled by P42's if need be. Since there is less traffic at night work on the catenary is done at that time.

Lately Amtrak has been doing work on the catenary between New Haven and Boston possibly in relation to Shore Line East someday running with M8's.

When the catenary on Metro North is de-energized Amtrak uses one of the New Haven to Springfield shuttle sets (cab car and all) to tow the train between New Haven to Gate.

Don't forget that during the Graham Claytor administration, there was an add-on/drop-off "Executive Sleeper" between New York and Washington, using a "heritage" 10-6 (no shower). Although the train left NYP after midnight, you could board the sleeper anytime after 9PM. Until the train arrived from Boston, early passengers had to be escorted to the sleeper. I rode it once, but the problem was people entering right up to departure time, with subsequent banging of doors and berths. ...And there may still have been some "stick rail" on the NEC back then.

BOS-WAS is a perfect route for sleepers. It's just the right length. It's got the federal government at one end, lots of universities and research companies and whatnot at the other, and massive tourist trade in both directions. Hotels are expensive at both ends, and public transportation is good. I love a good long-distance train ride, but it would make more sense to assign the sleepers to routes where they would be the most competitive against other modes than to assign them only to routes where they make a much longer train trip more tolerable to people who already decided they aren't in a hurry.

We here can daydream about adding and then setting out a Chicago-Memphis or Chicago-Denver sleeper, or getting a train scheduled right for a Pittsburgh-Chicago or Pittsburgh-NYP overnight. But putting sleepers on the NEC night trains would be simple if Amtrak would allocate the sleepers. Is there currently a separate coach or two on those trains for end-to-end coach pax, as there was in the 90s? If not, restore that, ideally with long-distance configured equipment instead of the usual short-distance stuff.

The route is a potential of many wood be passengers at a high fare. Mileage is not great so operating expenses of approximately $ 4.00 per mile would be paid for by about 4 passengers and one additional passenger to pay for SCA. It is the incremental revenue that will help. But "IF" Amtrak tries to allocate all the ancillary costs not so good. It is time that the incremental revenue of adding capacity is more fully understood by Amtrak..

A point not mentioned here is there will be additional demand for weekenders and others to Newport News. Tis poster expects that demand at certain times would require more sleepers that will never happen to be fulfilled.

I’m worried that the “this only takes two sleepers, one per direction” narrative is incomplete in that it doesn’t include spares.

BOS is less of a problem, it needs standby sleepers for the Lake Shore Limited anyway. Sharing a spare sleeper between the LSL and the Night Owl would actually increase Viewliner utilization.

NPN is a bigger problem for sleeper service though. It’s very conceivable that a Viewliner could be bad-ordered in the Tidewater without an Amtrak car-knocker to repair it in place, and sleeper passengers get stuck riding in the cafe until at least RVM, if not WAS. (Is there a spare Viewliner in RVM? Could a Regional be sent down from Sunnyside with a V-sleeper in time to meet 66 at Richmond?) It isn’t the end of the world as long as 66 isn’t sold out, but could be an inconvenience for passengers from the south. Also, does Amtrak have car cleaners in NPN/NFK?

So, Amtrak needs two sleepers plus two reserve cars, but if the schedules work right, Amtrak might be able to use one existing reserve sleeper and keep a second at Amtrak facilities at RVM or WAS.

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:42 pm I’m worried that the “this only takes two sleepers, one per direction” narrative is incomplete in that it doesn’t include spares.

BOS is less of a problem, it needs standby sleepers for the Lake Shore Limited anyway. Sharing a spare sleeper between the LSL and the Night Owl would actually increase Viewliner utilization.

NPN is a bigger problem for sleeper service though. It’s very conceivable that a Viewliner could be bad-ordered in the Tidewater without an Amtrak car-knocker to repair it in place, and sleeper passengers get stuck riding in the cafe until at least RVM, if not WAS. (Is there a spare Viewliner in RVM? Could a Regional be sent down from Sunnyside with a V-sleeper in time to meet 66 at Richmond?) It isn’t the end of the world as long as 66 isn’t sold out, but could be an inconvenience for passengers from the south. Also, does Amtrak have car cleaners in NPN/NFK?

So, Amtrak needs two sleepers plus two reserve cars, but if the schedules work right, Amtrak might be able to use one existing reserve sleeper and keep a second at Amtrak facilities at RVM or WAS.

Do you honestly think Amtrak keeps SPARE sleepers in Chicago and New Orleans? They don't. And here you have the Cardinal, Lake Shore Limited, and Crescent to deal with. Amtrak BARELY keeps spare sleepers in Sunnyside Yard!!! Most are kept in Hialeah, FL!

For every one sleeper there should be a spare? That's not how this works. VIA Rail Canada, during peak season, barely has any spares for the Canadian. All Manor series sleepers are used. They rely largely on Chateau sleepers, but this year they had to supply them on the Ocean's consist.

Lastly, it would be NICE to run the train all the way to Newport News once again with a sleeper, but it only did that while named the Twilight Shoreliner. Otherwise, the overnight sleeper on the NEC operated from Washington DC to Boston only. Did the VIewliner get bad-ordered occasionally and people re-located to business class - YES! But people managed. Same happens when a Viewliner sleeper gets bad-ordered out of Chicago or New Orleans. Passengers have to get relocated to an Amfleet!

If there was a spare sleeper in Sunnyside Yard, and it was needed in Washington for the overnight sleeper service back to Boston, couldn't it be dead-headed down on the Cardinal, Crescent, Silver Star or even the Silver Meteor during the day? Or better yet, a sleeper taken OFF (on the same named trains) of a LD consist heading northbound? The Viewliner utilization is an absolute joke and has been. Too many sit idle at NIGHT!

At one tie there was a spare V-1 at WASH. Once a few more sleepers become available a spare at WASH will be well placed. There could be several of the southern single level trains that could use cut off sleepers at WASH much like occurred before Amtrak.

I don't know why the sleeper has to go through to NPN. Pull it at WAS with the motor. If it runs on the head end, there's no more switch moves than there already is.

With no need to serve meals except maybe a box breakfast, no need to haul a diner-used-as-lounge, but the probable ability to charge nearly as much a night for Bos-Was as for NYP-CHI, the cars would make more (or lose less) on the NEC overnight train. It might be worth cutting a sleeper or two from one of the single-level LD trains to serve the night NEC train. Why stop at two sleepers if the market is there for three or four? I hate to see any train lose its sleeper, but this is Amtrak's one existing perfect overnight route where sleepers have a chance to capture some market share by being a practical form of transportation for people with no interest in trains.

Arborwayfan wrote: ↑Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:09 pm With no need to serve meals except maybe a box breakfast, no need to haul a diner-used-as-lounge, but the probable ability to charge nearly as much a night for Bos-Was as for NYP-CHI, the cars would make more (or lose less) on the NEC overnight train. It might be worth cutting a sleeper or two from one of the single-level LD trains to serve the night NEC train. Why stop at two sleepers if the market is there for three or four? I hate to see any train lose its sleeper, but this is Amtrak's one existing perfect overnight route where sleepers have a chance to capture some market share by being a practical form of transportation for people with no interest in trains.

There's no need for any train to lose its sleepers. If Amtrak re-worked the sleeper pool to see what should run through to NYP (Sunnyside Yard) and what may be more advantageous to cut and re-purpose at Washington DC, more sleepers could be freed up for service on southern routes or NEC overnight. It's all about equipment utilization. I've long criticized Amtrak's Viewliner Sleeper utilization. Even re-working some schedules slightly could free up sleepers for better utilization. The fact that NO sleepers do a same day turn at NYC's Sunnyside Yard anymore is a convenience for the staff, not the passengers. For example, same day turn of the Silver Meteor train sets at Sunnyside used to save ONE whole train set till 2005. It was more convenient to move the cancelled Three Rivers Viewliner sleepers over to create a fourth Silver Meteor train set than solve scheduling or maintenance/turnover.....Not saying that the same day turn of equipment didn't have its own set of problems, but if dealing with limited number of cars yet high end revenue being earned, you look for creative solutions - IF Amtrak wanted to........