China to Build Two High-Speed Railways - Why Not Amtrak?

"BEIJING - China announced Monday it will spend $22 billion to build two of the world's most ambitious railway-building projects — the nation's second magnetic levitation train and a high-speed railway linking Beijing and Shanghai....

... The 820-mile Beijing-Shanghai link will use wheeled trains traveling at up to 220 mph, said an announcement by the country's top industrial planning agency, the Cabinet's National Reform and Development Commission."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060313/ap_ ... t_trains_4

What do the Chinese know about the long-term benefits of enhancing their passenger rail infrastructure that we don't?

Trainer wrote:"BEIJING - China announced Monday it will spend $22 billion to build two of the world's most ambitious railway-building projects — the nation's second magnetic levitation train and a high-speed railway linking Beijing and Shanghai....

... The 820-mile Beijing-Shanghai link will use wheeled trains traveling at up to 220 mph, said an announcement by the country's top industrial planning agency, the Cabinet's National Reform and Development Commission."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060313/ap_ ... t_trains_4

What do the Chinese know about the long-term benefits of enhancing their passenger rail infrastructure that we don't?

It's not what they know, it's what they're willing to spend.

It's all about the $$$. I have a feeling that 300+ miles of high-speed rail connecting populated cities along a corridor would cost a bit more than $22 billion to build.

Why? Simply because we can't economically build/run rail services in the US?

Nasadowsk wrote:Why? Simply because we can't economically build/run rail services in the US?

Does can't mean won't?

china's population is much higher. where do you propose we build a service that will have a truly good effect.

the only place i think merits this in california

Cannot: Federal/State Law, Federal/State Regulation, and local ordinances/regulation, let alone procurement of property rights from private property holders combined place this type of project in the "too expensive and too tough to even consider" box. In spite of the adage "eat the elephant one bite at a time," THIS elephant just looks too big.

Will not: I know of no National political leader with sufficient voter capital to get out in front of this issue. Politicians are the ones who have to be willing to spend the voter capital (and ultimately the $$$) to overcame the cannots.

It's a combination of both.

My $0.01. The other penny went to the gas pump.

John Perkowski

China is run by a dictator who is not held responsible by the voting population.. aka Communist

John_Perkowski wrote:Cannot: Federal/State Law, Federal/State Regulation, and local ordinances/regulation, let alone procurement of property rights from private property holders combined place this type of project in the "too expensive and too tough to even consider" box. In spite of the adage "eat the elephant one bite at a time," THIS elephant just looks too big.

Will not: I know of no National political leader with sufficient voter capital to get out in front of this issue. Politicians are the ones who have to be willing to spend the voter capital (and ultimately the $$$) to overcame the cannots.

It's a combination of both.

My $0.01. The other penny went to the gas pump.

John Perkowski

Colonel,
Sadly, you're probably correct. We'll continue on our merry way with 20% of the global population gobbling up 60% of the total energy supply until Hubert's peak becomes a reality.

Trainer wrote: What do the Chinese know about the long-term benefits of enhancing their passenger rail infrastructure that we don't?

They have very few motorways. A huge percentage of people travel by train and the existing network cannot cope with the number of people who want to travel. They have a very densely populated country, especially in the area where they indent to build the first HSL.
But they believe in planning, whereas in the US planning is a dirty word.

China has horrid transportation infrastructure, so the project meets a definite need.

China has money coming out their ears, so this project has ample funding.

China has a rich commie for a leader, so he can take property and demand immediate construction of the project.


As opposed to the US, where there is not much of a need, no money, and antics like the PRR/PC squabbling with Budd squabbling with the Feds about paying for and implementing the project (metroliner MU's)

In addition to several good reasons posted above... recent experience here in Massachusetts shows that NIMBY opposition is one of the most formidable obstacles to restoring rail passenger service on unused or little-used existing rights-of-way. Any attempt at building an altogether new TGV-style high speed rail line through even lightly populated areas of this country would be tied up in court for years by people who were offended by the idea of a train within sight or earshot of their property (not to mention the issue of people who might loose part of their property to the new line and decide to fight land-taking in court). NIMBYs aren't a problem in China, where the government just decides what to build and then goes ahead and does it.

1. China is a Communist country, in which the dictators/government can do what they please, with little or no opposition from the people - supposedly, in the name that all government actions are for the general good.

2. China has a much greater population (at least where the rail lines are being built), and a much greater population density.

3. Because China is a communist country, there is a greater social demand for public transportation than the private automobile. Access to private automobiles and roads are limited compared to the U.S.

4. China has money. They have hundreds of billions of U.S. dollars sitting in repositories; not to mention billions more in U.S. Treasury Bonds.

5. China has very little if any foreign debt. In fact, they are buying OUR debt.

6. China can build, produce, operate, and maintain things cheap. They already have nationalized healthcare/retirement. Pay a worker a couple bucks a day; give them free healthcare (which costs cents per day), give them cheap housing (the land has little or no value, the government owns it). Entirely different economy than the U.S. (Why are so many goods that we buy made in China? Because it's CHEAP!)

Bottom line is that it ain't going to happen in the United States, short of an overthrow of our government. And I'm not talking about Democrats taking over the Executive and Legislative branches, either. In fact, with the exception of #2 and #5, Cuba could very well have its own HSR line.

on the face of it , the political and economical differences between China and the USA mentioned in this thread are correct .
In practice , however i think the differences are not as big as they first seem .
While it may appear that the Chinese government can build what it likes where it likes , they have to take more and more notice of the populaces opinion and wishes . otherwise these high speed trains would resemble cattletrucks , packing as many in to stand for the journey , in the name of efficency . Likewise putting the tracks through a popular area would not be a good idea .
On the other side of the coin , In the USA , and other democracies , It appears the govt must take notice of every person who wishes to object to the building of the line . In practice , nimby activity is usually undertaken by the middle to upper income groups , who can afford the time and money to do so . likewise polls that show popular support for rail travel and wish for high speed rail , do not count for much , compared to lobbying by interest groups ,who benefit more from car / plane transport .

On the economic side , one must compare govt expenditure for both countries . the money is there , its deciding on what to spend it that is the problem .

If the govt wanted high speed rail , it could do it .

AMTRAK FORUM MODERATOR'S NOTE

While no doubt the originator of this topic acted in good faith when entering such at the Amtrak Forum, I believe the topic's scope goes far beyond any concerning Amtrak affairs. Accordingly, I have chosen to move such to this Forum.

Mr Kincaid, at the Amtrak Forum, I customarily remove Moderator's Notes once they have served their intended purpose; I shall take no umbrage whatever if you choose to do same in this instance.

GBN