China High Speed Rail development

China's breakneck HSR construction has resulted in running up big debts, something like $200 billion, and a serious possibility of substandard concrete having been used in some of the construction.

The trains are also priced much higher than more ordinary trains, leading some Chinese to call them "white-collar trains".

As to needing operational subsidies, that's a problem for the slower trains; experience shows that running trains fast enough can easily make an operational profit.

I'm not sure profit is even relevant to a chinese high speed rail service . at least in the western sense of the word .
It may be as simple as he told the wrong joke at a dinner party . or insulted somebodies wife . i dont think we can read too much into it either .

Or else turned down a contract from some company that some Party boss is connected to -- trying to guess what sort of politics might be behind that move.

one thing for sure , dont expect chinese investigative journalisim to get to the bottom of it .

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: I wouldn't assume too much.

Currently, the Chinese are realizing that their passenger rail system is going to lose money and require subsidies - just like Amtrak. Considering average incomes in China, there's a limit on fare increases, and given the staggering size of the system, it's simply impossible to break even.

Of course, there are also tremendous wage pressures and growing inflation in China, so it's not unreasonable to expect that railway labor costs will rapidly increase as well, making a deteriorating financial situation worse.

It could be as simple as the projections were whack, thus the government bought into a program nut understanding how much it would cost the nation, and that this guy was held to blame for getting China into this. Remember, there has been a lot of complaint about how high the HSR fares are, if the passenger counts are lower than projections because of the fares and we know the costs are higher than projections because inflation has really started to kick in then it might be that the Chinese leaders had just figured out that the bills coming to them are a lot more than they figured on.

China Railways Highspeed CRH380BL passing on Shanghai Hangzhou High Speed Line - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwayNK29Gu4

Panamy wrote:What stops are there on the new high speed train service from london st pancras to sittingbourne

Here's a link to a map.
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/yo ... twork-map/

Note:
Service to Faversham. Trains leave HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Train is only on HS1 for 37 kms of the approximate 70 kms to Sittingbourne.
Stations are St. Pancras, Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Rochester, Chatham, Gilingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham.

Services to Broadstairs. Trains leave HS1 at Ebbsfleet. Train is only on HS1 for 37 kms of the approximate 70 kms to Sittingbourne.
Stations are St. Pancras, Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Chatham, Rochester, Gilingham, Rainham, Sittingbourne, Faversham, Whitstable, Herne Bay, Birchington-on-Sea, Margate, and Broadstairs.

Therefore, the trains can only reach maximum speeds for less than half the distance.
I hope this helps...

The exchange a few posts above between Msrs. Petrich and Benton gets very close to he heart of the HSR impasse: The private sector maintains a healthy skepticism toward any HSR project because of the huge capital costs, long lead times, and fixed nature of any HSR physical plant. And as illustrated above, in the case of publicly-funded projects, no one can say for certain what outside forces are brought to bear via the use of political influence.

A truly free and open democracy should have better prospects for addressing this, but as illustrated by the Supreme Court's decison in a Connecticut case (Kelo vs. City of New London) back in 2005, the trend seems to be moving in the opposite direction, with the possibility of the principle of eminent domain (which is a "gut" issue among those with strong civil-libertarian beliefs) used for siezure of private property for quasi-private purposes (and addtional benefits for those holding private property near the confiscated site). --- "Crony capitalism" rather than open capitalism.

2nd trick op wrote:A truly free and open democracy should have better prospects for addressing this, but as illustrated by the Supreme Court's decison in a Connecticut case (Kelo vs. City of New London) back in 2005, the trend seems to be moving in the opposite direction, with the possibility of the principle of eminent domain (which is a "gut" issue among those with strong civil-libertarian beliefs) used for siezure of private property for quasi-private purposes (and addtional benefits for those holding private property near the confiscated site). --- "Crony capitalism" rather than open capitalism.

Back to the 19th century then! That is how the transcontinental railroads were built, after all.

Yeah, I'm not very fond of the system of delegating governmental powers to private for-profit enterprises, either. But this country sure does have a record of it.

I didn't see any references to this article when I searched, and this seems like an appropriate topic for it...Simon Winchester (British writer) has an article in Vanity Fair about taking the first high speed train ride from Shanghai to Beijing.

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/feat ... ina-201110

I particularly like the part about having to find a participating drugstore to buy a ticket, because they weren't for sale at the train station.

Dan

dth9269 wrote:I didn't see any references to this article when I searched, and this seems like an appropriate topic for it...Simon Winchester (British writer) has an article in Vanity Fair about taking the first high speed train ride from Shanghai to Beijing.

Not surprising it is not easy to find as it is for the October issue.

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/feat ... ina-201110

I particularly like the part about having to find a participating drugstore to buy a ticket, because they weren't for sale at the train station.

Dan

Yes, there is a hallucinatory quality about the Chinese economic explosion. I wonder if it will suffer a collision in the manner of the crashed trains.

Mr Matthews wrote:

[quote]Yes, there is a hallucinatory quality about the Chinese economic explosion. I wonder if it will suffer a collision in the manner of the crashed trains.{/quote]

Quite likely, Mr. Matthews; And if it turns out to be a large shock, that will be precisely because an absolutist clique in charge of a huge amount of looted or over-regulated capital tied down too many safety valves.

The difference in economic belifs/values aside for the moment, I don't have an answer for ths one. The amounts of capital and long-term horizons make individual entrepreneurship unworkable. And while I acknowledge your belief in an "enlightened public sector", I retain my doubts. The access to enormous amouts of capital, and the absence of market discipline/profit motive usually causes imbalances, and the natural reaction from those who benefit from those imbalances (current example; the American public-employee unions) is to protect them at all costs.

The question isn't one of wherther the correction will come, but when, and at what cost, particularly if those holding the power begin to stfle dissent, as they usually do.

The kind of meltdown that has already happened in the private secotr in the west ???

My point again, Mr Benton, is that the meltdown in the west faced the multiple scrutinties of a free press, a well-established political opposition, and both safeguarded by a checks-and-balances system that has been under development for over two centuries. and all that before the financial cosequenses in a litigation-obsessed society, BTW.

To draw another paralell, blame for the fourteen fatalities incurred during the operation iof the American space shuttle program can be attributed in part to the fact that it operated from a bureaucratic value system. I, for one, wil never forget the Morton-Thikol executive (Robert Lund -- every undergrad business student should know his name) who, on the morning of the Challenger disaster advised engineering manager Roger Boisjoly (whom I was priveleged to hear speak some years later):

"Roger, it's time to take off your "engineer''s hat", and put on your "manager's hat".

And I don't hve to guess what sort of mentality ruled at Chernobyl.

David Benton wrote:The kind of meltdown that has already happened in the private sector in the west ???

In my opinion the Anglo-American model is bust, especially the unchecked power of the financial sector. I recommend more Mondragon companies. What the Chinese model really amounts to is a mystery.