Catskill Mountain Railroad News - 2010

DonPevsner wrote:Otto Vondrak got my intentions exactly right (see above post by him). Unless big-bucks sources are sought-out and tapped, no one will be climbing Pine Hill in a tourist train from Kingston until the 22nd century.

Unfortunately the railroad remains a county property. Any appeal for funds has to come from the county government.

-otto-

As an active volunteer on the CMRR I try real hard to stay out of the general pizzing and moaning that goes on sites like this and others as I have found it is almost an Olympic sport to rip others on the Internet regardless of the subject. That said, a response to Mr Pevsner's comments I feel is warranted. You know your in trouble when somebody qualifies their critique with a compliment like applying the ointment before the cut. Damning one with faint praise ,as it were ,is condescending to say the least. Out of the blue you have chosen to stick your nose under the tent to blow your own horn with regard to your efforts to save the railroad from the torch. For your efforts let me say THANK YOU however...why is it you must now catalog our "weakness or faults" as YOU see them? Your "painful duty" as you say? Who assigned you this "duty"? "Make up on a morbid corspe'' ? That helps the effort in just what way?

*(3)It will take outside funding of $35-40 million or so to totally restore the U&D to FRA Class II/III status between Kingston and Roxbury, thereby making it viable for the first time as a continuous tourist railroad with an impressive 57-mile total length, having finally reached "critical mass."

Could you please site the source for your estimate or any study that was done to arrive at those numbers. A tourist line is only viable if it's over 50 miles in length? The term "critical mass" is one of those modern buzz words thrown about but rarely with any definition by the writer. The "goal" of Kingston - Roxbury operation would be part of any attempt to restore the railroad but many pressing issues with the current continuous line between Kingston-Phoenicia are a the real goal. Lets put K-R in the "dream" category. As you likely know Mr Cornell's "goal" of reaching Oswego was never attained so maybe the U&D was never completed and the current operations will have to "finish" the job. I wonder if Kingstonians would enjoy a day of Harborfest in the city of Oswego?

"(4)In the more-distant future: (a)It is totally feasible to relay the rails from Bloomville to Grand Gorge (where an unused turntable sits), and on from there to Stamford using the ROW now occupied by a Rail Trail. This would provide a 72-mile run, to a western terminus with more "critical mass" of its own than Roxbury and easy access to a plethora of tourist attractions in a wide arc from Stamford to Cooperstown via connecting shuttle van services."

You seem to have forgotten the connection needed between Roxbury and Grand Gorge and the two needed crossings of Rt- 30 to get there.

(b)Finally, the dream of Steve Delibert, late President of the U&D Historical Society, was to use the abandoned ROW of the U&D from Roxbury to West Davenport and the "D&H connector" from there to Cooperstown Junction, plus the existing former D&H trackage between Cooperstown Junction and Cooperstown, to establish a through tourist railroad all the way from Kingston to Cooperstown. While contingent upon both adequate outside funding and the feasibility of acquiring possibly-reverted ROW land parcels by condemnation if necessary, this amazing vision would actually cost less than the new Ulster County Jail in Kingston will cost to build: a fact that amazed Congressman Maurice Hinchey, who has never managed to come-through with any meaningful Federal or NY State funding (such as STEAMTOWN NHS received in Scranton, PA, and as the Adirondack Scenic Railroad received between Remsen and Thendara and between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid) in his entire Congressional career.

Dream!!!!! ? I guess!!! Man may walk on Neptune one day also but it's far beyond any attainable goal. Outside funding? (from where do you see?) Condemnation? ( ou wanna use Eminent Domain for a tourist railroad?) Can you imagine the howls about that thought. Amazing vision? (see Neptune comment). I also don't see how slamming Mr Hinchey is helpful either. Have you ever talked to the folks at the C&CV? The village of Cooperstown does not exactly go out of their way to help "their" railroad so a connection to another at CJ will hardly excite them. As to your work on the Walkway again a Thank you is in order but comparing the relaying of the entire U&D to the Walkway is not a realistic comparison in my view.

"At the present rate of "progress", very few individuals now involved will ever live to see a proper, functioning U&D restored to the railroad tourism scene. And this is a genuine tragedy"

Of all that you have written this one frost me the most. The view of Ashokan Reservoir from the railroad is a good a scenic goal as any line in NY State has and people will come from afar to visit the Catskills on this unique line. While it's not in the mission statement of the CMRR, restoration of the railroad to operation does indeed go along way to preserving the line for future generations who may be tasked with the completion of the line however "completion" may be defined going forward. The railroad currently has it's distracters and likely always will have but we "battle" on in spite of it. The real "genuine tragedy" I believe are people like you who "work" the otherside of the street because they see it as something other than some so called vision they have of it. I'll not engage you in a back and forth here as I've had my say. Show up trackside someday and I'll be glad to discuss the railroad with you anytime. You can find me amongst the spikes, bolts and ballast piles.

(1)The source of the estimate to finish the job was none other than Earl Pardini, whom I have known for several decades: worked-out at my then-second home in Ulster Park.

(2)Stop defending the status quo, volunteers, and get going immediately to FIND THE MONEY TO COMPLETE THE JOB TO ROXBURY. The Walkway Over The Hudson group did, and has a hell of a lot more to show for it than you do. They used a major contractor with the $38.8 million in mostly-governmental funding they secured, to do the job in about one year, and so should CMRR and the line's governmental owners. The Walkway Over The Hudson Group began precisely as the CMRR has continued: with a few volunteers, who have--truth be told--accomplished RELATIVELY LITTLE. When its founder, Bill Sepe, refused to pursue any governmental funding because of his personal "libertarian" beliefs, that Group had the ultimate good sense to get rid of him in a fortuitous coup. He was replaced by Poughkeepsie attorney Fred Schaeffer, who knew how to GET THE JOB DONE CORRECTLY. It took 11 years 4 months of Walkway Group ownership of the Poughkeepsie Bridge, from June 5, 1998 until the job was completed, on October 3, 2009. But what a great result! Let's hope it will not take another 11 years in the case of the U&D. If the truth is painful to hear, so be it. I have never seen such examples of utter defeatism and limited vision as those expressed in the last few posts.

(3)The railroad is an Ulster County property only between Kingston and Highmount. It is owned by the Towns from there to Bloomville. I see absolutely no reason why a mass funding effort cannot be started locally, with the ultimate receipients being both Ulster County and the Towns, earmarked expressly for U&D renovation. The A. Lindsay and Olive B. O'Connor Foundation of Delhi, NY would like to see some of this funding used to improve the track between Arkville and Roxbury as well: ask Donald Bishop II, who also sits on the U&D Historical Society Board of Directors.

(4)I do not care one bit about "blowing my own horn", and never have. The purpose of my chronology was to show the incredible passage of time since the entire effort started back in 1974 (36 years!), compared to the relatively little work done DUE TO THE ABSENCE OF THE NECESSARY FUNDING TO DO THE JOB COMPLETELY. Had I been able to see into the distant future (2010) back in 1974, and discovered the amount of renovation work that the CMRR group had achieved by that time, I would never have lifted a finger to preserve the U&D.

(4)If securing adequate outside funding means that the CMRR has to give up its currently-exclusive control over the Ulster County portion of the U&D, up to and including its lease from the County, what do your members prefer: an operating railroad from Kingston to Roxbury, in which the CMRR could play a large part on the operating side, or a place to play on the weekends?

(5)Last but not least, as with the Walkway Group endeavor, IT IS THE POLITICIANS WHO WILL OR WILL NOT DELIVER MOST OF THE FUNDING NEEDED. Start with Rep. Maurice Hinchey, please, as years of my own advocacy directly to him has done very little good to date.

DonPevsner wrote:((3)The railroad is an Ulster County property only between Kingston and Highmount. It is owned by the Towns from there to Bloomville. I see absolutely no reason why a mass funding effort cannot be started locally, with the ultimate receipients being both Ulster County and the Towns, earmarked expressly for U&D renovation.

Don, unless you know something I don't, what makes you think the CMRR is "defending the status quo?" I don't speak for the CMRR Board, but I can see how it might be easy to assume that the volunteers are just sitting on our butts waiting for some windfall to magically appear. That is hardly the case.

-otto-

The CMRR's effort thus far to date in raising funds on the order of $35-40 million, absolutely necessary in order to restore the line between Kingston and Highmount, has obviously never even been attempted. The minimal funds that CMRR has secured are a mere pittance, and represent a few more packages of "makeup on the railroad's corpse." CMRR should either radically alter its current "one step at a time" stance, which is obviously not working at all with regard to the entire railroad, or surrender its lease to Ulster County with the recommendation that a new effort similar to that of the Walkway Over The Hudson group be commenced immediately by owner Ulster County.

I have been most impressed with the work done by the CMRR volunteer crew and they have made great progress in the past few years. I have followed their efforts from the photographs on RR Net and they have a lot to be proud of. My hat is off to that group!

Getting $35 or $40 million from the government for a tourist RR is more than unlikely and the best chance of accessing that kind of money, especially given the current economic situation, is probably by purchasing a lottery ticket on behalf of the CMRR every month. How many years has it taken to get the second track replaced between Albany and Schenectady on the main line to improve Amtrak operations. The clock is still ticking on that project. The Poughkeepsie Bridge program was an anomaly as was Steamtown.

More total defeatism, Jack. How do you know until you TRY? If this attitude had prevailed at your so-called "anomaly", the Poughkeepsie Bridge, it would still be a decaying and useless hulk.

I'm not really understanding why Don thinks the goal should be total restoration. Maybe, in the grand scheme of things, the CMRR is doing exactly what is needed and what should be done? I don't understand why he thinks his dream should prevail over others. I don't understand why he thinks taxpayers should be put on the hook. Maybe we have our own plans for our money? Maybe we think it's more important to slowly but surely put back together abandoned railbeds into trails so that they can be restored into rails.

Yes, the walkway is great, but it was also very expensive; what other great things would have been done with that money? Don is acting as if the choice was between the walkway and nothing when instead it was between the walkway and something else. Similarly, the choice here is between a restored U&D and something else. Maybe we are currently enjoying the something else, and what's wrong with that?

DonPevsner wrote:The CMRR's effort thus far to date in raising funds on the order of $35-40 million, absolutely necessary in order to restore the line between Kingston and Highmount, has obviously never even been attempted.

Do you know this for a fact, Don? I didn't realize you held a seat on the Board. Or are you volunteering to be our lobbyist in Washington?

I was in touch with Rep. Maurice Hinchey until last year, over several decades. We discussed the future of the U&D every time we spoke. Had any effort been made to secure sufficient governmental funding to restore the line from Kingston all the way to Roxbury, I would have known about it.
Save your sarcasm for elsewhere, Otto.

Maybe this topic should be a separate thread from CMRR News...maybe Bash the CMRR Volunteers or something.

DonPevsner wrote:I was in touch with Rep. Maurice Hinchey until last year, over several decades. We discussed the future of the U&D every time we spoke. Had any effort been made to secure sufficient governmental funding to restore the line from Kingston all the way to Roxbury, I would have known about it. Save your sarcasm for elsewhere, Otto.

Well, that settles that! I'm glad you cleared that up for us. Anyway, let's get back to current news updates... if anyone has any additional rebuttals for Mr. Pevsner, please contact him by PM or email directly. Thanks!

-otto-

If you read the newspapers, NYS debt is anywhere between 2 billion and 12 billion. Lets split the difference and say "a whole lot". Since the economy is bad and more people are leaving the state than arriving each year, getting tax money for a tourist line is a non-starter.

The work the vollies are doing is all that is going to happen. Good for them but it is a huge job and likely more than they can handle in the long run. Look at the preserved railways in England and
note that very few are 20 miles long, most ten or less. Part of the problem isnt just establishing the line but keeping it up. Population density is much higher over there than here providing more vollies and more paying passengers than we have here.

I just cannot see how this project can carry on in any other way than it is now: enthusiasts pressing forward because they enjoy doing it.

Just a few comments before we switch back to our regular channel.

The CMRR and DURR are constantly looking for public funding for restoring the railroad. The CMRR only covers Ulster County, so I can only comment on that portion. Mr. Pevsner is correct that public funds will ultimately be needed to fully restore the line, and it can't be done soley through volunteer efforts.

Nevertheless, the efforts of the CMRR volunteers has restored 3 miles of track to train service since 2006. This has been especially helpful in Kingston, the political seat of Ulster County, where we are now part of the political landscape since we started service there in 2008. Because of the "priming of the pump" that CMRR volunteers have done, we are now taken more seriously by the county and state, and our chances of obtaining funding have gone up tremendously.

Because I try only to report facts, not hopes, I have to limit my discussion on-line to things that are occurring shortly or have occurred. When we have actually secured funding for any future projects, we will report it on online as soon as it becomes a fact.

EH.

And now back to the hum drum.

Saturday, February 20th

On Saturday, George Peck led a crew consisting of Derek Stapleton, Mark Glaser, and Dick Wilhelm, who worked on various pieces of equipment in the Phoenicia yard, including the gradall, the tie handler, the Duck and the ballast regulator, bringing them all back to life and making maintenance adjustments on them.

http://naphotos.nerail.org/s/?p=163379

Ernie Hunt
Volunteer Coordinator
CMRR