Cascades 501 Wreck 18 December 17

David Benton wrote:Its not like PTC( as been installed in the USA) is overly high tech. Really , it should have been done decades ago. if you count up the costs of avoidable accidents over the last 20 years , I think it would surpass the cost of installing PTC. Plus you'd have 110 mph or better trains in a lot more places. And potenially closer spacing/ faster running of freight trains.

I guess it depends on how one defines "high tech." From what I've seen first hand in the development of these systems on a specific (large) Western Class I railroad, I would have to respectfully disagree. The level of complexity, as currently being developed and implemented, far surpasses any legacy systems already in general use, and the technology has not been available for "decades."

Industry analysis has shown that PTC does not make sense in purely financial terms (as compared to what so-called preventable accidents have cost historically). It's generally seen as an overkill solution that will tend to slow the operation down significantly, without sufficient payback to support the investment of private funds.

But aside from that, of course, the prevention of potential fatalities is not so easily dismissed.

So does WASDOT have enough Talgos consists to cover its present schedule? Any word on replacement or is Siemens going on sales trip to the Northwest?

They have cancelled a Portland-Seattle round trip and have substituted one set with Superliners, which has been done for a while since the Mt. Jefferson set has been out since the summer and one set had been used for testing of the new route. They were running a two Amfleet shuttle but are not anymore.

No word on replacements yet.

Tadman wrote:1. Don't ask people to disclose stuff that might get them in trouble with their employer. If there is language in the document that it is clearly secret or protected, the employer is within legal rights to discipline you internally or through the courts.

It is amazing how easy some are to find ... and not hidden on the dark web or stolen from employees. Publicly posted. I won't say where because I do not want to offend the sensitive souls ... but finding is not rocket science.

It isn't worth arguing about ... and as I stated, the salient parts will be published by the NTSB (as they have been in previous investigations).

PS: Feel free to ask me anything about any company I am not employed by or have no connection to. Employees need not be the ones to share answers.

OTOH, having worked for an airline and occasionally had job need to see things that were considered "security sensitive", the warnings on them about unauthorized disclosure made it very clear that doing so could have major legal repercussions. Nothing I have ever seen on a railroad employee timetable or rule book has come to that level of warning.

Although my railroad service was almost 40 years ago, I still have my rule books despite them saying they must be returned upon leaving service because frankly no one actually cared or kept records of who had been issued them.

justalurker66 wrote:

Tadman wrote:1. Don't ask people to disclose stuff that might get them in trouble with their employer. If there is language in the document that it is clearly secret or protected, the employer is within legal rights to discipline you internally or through the courts.

It is amazing how easy some are to find ... and not hidden on the dark web or stolen from employees. Publicly posted.

It isn't worth arguing about ... and as I stated, the salient parts will be published by the NTSB (as they have been in previous investigations).

it is amazingly easy for companies to trace were a document comes from, anything we post on internet leaves a trail even if you delete.

You may want to consider wearing one of these around just to be really safe.



ADMIN NOTE:

Tad wins the internet today!:

frequentflyer wrote:So does WASDOT have enough Talgos consists to cover its present schedule? Any word on replacement or is Siemens going on sales trip to the Northwest?

On Track On Line keeps a roster of various Amtrak trains. here’s a link for the Talgos in Cascades service.
http://on-track-on-line.com/amtk-roster-trainsets.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To keep the discussion simple, there are 5 trains using Class 6 cars with 12 cars each, and 2 trains using Class 8 cars with 13 cars each. The 2 Class 8 trains are owned by Oregon, 2 Class 6 trains are owned by Amtrak and 3 Class 6 trains are owned by Washington - including what was the proposed Las Vegas train set. Per the link, there are 60 (5 x 12) Class 6 cars and 26 Class 9 cars in service, or 86 cars in total. There were just 5 additional spare Class 6 cars; 1 power and 1 baggage (end cars on either end), 1 bistro, and 2 accessible coach cars. They would be 7 cars short of making a full 12 car set of Class 6 cars.

If this posting is a duplicate, "sorry 'bout that".

Here is a YouTube video that I'm sure all concerned parties involved with the incident would like to suppress. But it's high quality and taken from public property:

https://youtu.be/xM77QLL1A4U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Somewhere I read the salvage is being taken to McChord AFB.

But how many who witnessed or learned of that move are going to conclude that rail travel is unsafe and "you'll never catch me on that". Adding fuel to that fire is when they learn the incident (in almost certain likelihood; the NTSB report isn't out yet) arose from employee negligence.

And how will that perception be enhanced when they learn there was not a single air transport fatality last year - and none on US soil since '13 (Asiana @ SFO).

What a Black Eye.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:But how many who witnessed or learned of that move are going to conclude that rail travel is unsafe and "you'll never catch me on that".

Probably none. Pictures and video of the scene showing way worse damage than that have been out since minutes after the crash. Witness and NTSB statements about events leading up to the crash are already out, including the speed. Seeing that being moved is not telling anyone anything they don't already know.

Is anything actually known yet about damage estimates to the locomotive and Talgo set? Obviously, it will be quite a while (years, certainly) before any equipment* is either scrapped or repaired due to the investigation and legal matters, but by this time after a major derailment the extent (and cost) of damage usually gets posted somewhere online, and I haven't seen it in this case.

Many posts and reports have referred to the Talgo set "destroyed in the derailment", but such would be unusual for even a serious rail accident, and even a cursory laypersons' glance at the photos reveals all cars were not equally damaged; Those which remained on the ROW are less likely to be written off (speculation, but not without basis).


* - The rear P42 held the rails and was presumably undamaged. Is it also being held for the investigation, or has it been released back to service?

OXBO, the company that handles the SC-44 move, did a simply amazing job ...

Small family owned company, whose primary business is, amongst other things, transporting transformers for power companies.

They manufactured a customized jig in less than 24 hours to modify one of their heavy haulers (and apparently one of only two such trailers in the entire pacific northwest) to accommodate the length of the locomotive, and moved the thing the entire way (at 10mph) without a single bit of additional damage to the train, or anything on the roads.

You can see from the rig, they were using dump trucks for braking control ... the load was too much for mere regular trucks.

Simply an astonishing feat of on-the-fly engineering to move that piece of equipment.

Mr. Norman, I sometimes wonder how many additional car deaths each railroad death causes. Even in years with big wrecks trains generally have fewer deaths per passenger mile ie they are safer, but as you say people may get the idea that they are dangerous. If they drive instead -- and a lot of rail travel is instead of a car rather than instead of a plane -- statistically more people are likely to die.

I'm not saying that Amtrak's defense should be "we were still safer than driving this year"; I am saying that policymakers and passengers should think that when deciding how to balance different modes.

Arborwayfan wrote:Mr. Norman, I sometimes wonder how many additional car deaths each railroad death causes. Even in years with big wrecks trains generally have fewer deaths per passenger mile ie they are safer, but as you say people may get the idea that they are dangerous. If they drive instead -- and a lot of rail travel is instead of a car rather than instead of a plane -- statistically more people are likely to die.

I'm not saying that Amtrak's defense should be "we were still safer than driving this year"; I am saying that policymakers and passengers should think that when deciding how to balance different modes.

What passengers should consider and what they do think about aren’t the same. Most consumers, it doesn’t matter what the product or service is, consider price above everything else, speed of delivery, and convenience later. Safety is usually last, if considered at all.

litz wrote:OXBO, the company that handles the SC-44 move, did a simply amazing job ...

Small family owned company, whose primary business is, amongst other things, transporting transformers for power companies.
.....
Simply an astonishing feat of on-the-fly engineering to move that piece of equipment.

Still disappointed there's no video of them loading the hauler. The cranes must have been sizable....

(Yes, transformers can be heavy as well.... )