Buffalo Central Station under Amtrak (Past, Present, Future)

There is a good market for decent passenger train service across New York State BUT it does not include abandoned lines nor
the old Central Terminal in Buffalo.
You could have a "palace" for a railroad station but if people do not use it, it will end up a "white elephant".
Noel Weaver

A "huge market for people who don't care to drive across the state by car"? Who are all these people? Where are they going and why would they go by train? Most people will drive. Some will fly. Some, due to extreme low cost, will take a bus. And some take the train service we already have. Do you really think there is that much of a niche market to be worth spending billions on rail passenger service?

If someone does not want to drive, they already have three other options; fly, bus, or rail.

BR&P wrote:A "huge market for people who don't care to drive across the state by car"? Who are all these people? Where are they going and why would they go by train? Most people will drive. Some will fly. Some, due to extreme low cost, will take a bus. And some take the train service we already have. Do you really think there is that much of a niche market to be worth spending billions on rail passenger service?

If someone does not want to drive, they already have three other options; fly, bus, or rail.

The people I am describing have driven before but just after many trips, find the actual drive rather annoying and realize they do not need their car while they are there.

All I can say regarding patronage between New York - Albany - Syracuse and Buffalo is a little bit dated although I don't think
the situation is very much different in 2009 than it was up until 1997. During my years in Albany the patronage was very
heavy between New York and Albany. Betwen Albany and Syracuse it was still pretty good with colleges and institutions in the
area helping as well as a reasonable distance and travel time. West of Syracuse it was much less and I think the big reason
was the incease in travel time.
None of the bigger stops on this route are exactly growing but there is still enough population and demand for better and
more frequent service on this line. Exactly how much more I am not prepared to say.
By 1960 the third and fourth tracks were pretty much history between Albany and Buffalo but the New York Central still was
able to operate 10 or more through passenger trains in each direction plus probably at least 3 mail and express trains each
way and a whole lot of freight trains as well over the two remaining tracks. Granted, they had way more controlled sidings
at that time than they do today as well as more main crossovers but they were able to do the job with two main tracks.
While Perlman wanted as many trains as possible out of the timetable, he also ordered that the trains that the Cenral
operated were to be clean, reliable and on time and for the most part they were.
I think this line could handle a lot more traffic if the second track were to be restored between Rensselaer and CP-169 west
of Schenectady and all of the controlled sidings and crossovers that have been removed over the past 40 or so years were to
be put back in. Cab signals should also be in use on all of the main tracks and controlled/signaled sidings. With proper
policies regarding dispatching, passenger trains being delivered on time and good dispatching there is no reason that this
line can't handle the same numbers of trains that it superbly handled in the New York Central days.
This is far more important than trying to use an old station in Buffalo or any other location on this line for that matter.
Noel Weaver

The people I am describing have driven before but just after many trips, find the actual drive rather annoying and realize they do not need their car while they are there.

And why is it the obligation of any of us taxpayers to do something about that?

And how many people would that be? 50? 100? And how often are they forced to make this cross-state trip? Once a year? Once a week? You could take the money being proposed for "high speed rail" and get each of those travelers a private charter jet flight, and have money left over.

Actually your statement pretty much describes ANY trip we all make repeatedly, whether it's to the corner grocery store or to visit Aunt Maud in Podunk. Construction, dodging semis, etc does get annoying but it's life - deal with it. Someone being annoyed at traveling across the state and not needing their car when they get there should not be an excuse to reach into MY wallet!

Let's get off "high speed rail" and back into the Terminal, please.

SST wrote:Assuming that this follows the entire CSX mainline.....do you think they'll pull up existing track and lay new track or will they expand the row and lay new track on that?

The official plan is to lay a third track for exclusive passenger use. With a couple of exceptions the entire ROW was originally four tracks and is now owned by CSX; the plan is to buy enough of that ROW from CSX to establish a full third track, with connections to the existing tracks used for trains passing each other for now. The long-run speculative arrangement is two freight, two passenger from Schenectady to Buffalo.

Obviously this allows for diversions on the "new track" where it would speed things up and the land is available at reasonable cost.

Sorry to still be off topic; I'll shut up about NY HSR plans in this topic now.

I just did a little reading on BCS. Their website states it was built for 200 trains/day, 10,000 passengers/day, and 1,500 NYC employees. I think we all know that between the poor location (3 miles out from downtown) and the "not gonna happen" traffic volume (441 riders/day between both stations today), it isn't going to be brought back as a station.

That said, Amtrak used it until 1979. What kind of train volume and ridership volume did it see in those years? I can't imagine it was good, coming off the Penn Central years of poor service, awful track, and bankruptcy. And did Amtrak use the full station or did they set up an Amshack or use a small room in the station?

Wow, I knew it was huge, but that's impressive.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and get Buffalo back up to 10% of that someday

This station was reduced in scope under Penn Central when the large waiting room facility was shut down and barricaded. Before Amtrak there was about double the service in Buffalo that exists today but in 1979 when the facility was finally shut down they had about the same trains that they have today. Buffalo made out very well in 1979 when Amtrak made the change, they gained a decent downtown station that has decent local transportation connections close by and they also gained a good station with lots of good, safe parking as well as decent highway access. There is no way they could return to Central and lose the benefits of the changes of 1979.
Noel Weaver

Be curious as to how ridership at BCS in 1978 compares with the combined Depew/Exchange St. today. I was able to go inside BCS about 4 or 5 years ago, sort of like a ruined cathedral. Interestingly, I believe Amtrak still owns the platforms, but not the building.

A good chunk of origination passengers if I remember right during the Amtrak era was for the continuation of the TH&B RDC service to Toronto....

Yes, i believe they retain ownership of the platforms, the land to either side, and up to where the concourse was severed. Then some preservation group owns the rest, i think.

The main building and the baggage building are owned by the Central Terminal Restoration Corp. Although the likelihood of trains ever returning to the Terminal are almost 0, they seem very hopeful that they may one day come back. I visited the building about a year ago, it really is a beautiful building, I hope to see it fully restored someday.

Per the City of Buffalo GIS system it says this for owner of the the platforms, the concourse and the track area, 982 William:

NATIONAL RR PASSENGER CORP TRANS
400 NO CAPTIAL ST NW
WASH DC